Homosexuality

[Foxfire]

*Gasp* Its one of those forbidden areas that some feel familiar discussing while others beat around the bush. But no matter what sexuality someone is, they're just like you and I. The only different is they are attracted to different sexes. So who gets you going, and don't be shy now. This is a very open board who welcomes any and all. :D

So the big question is are you straight, bi, or gay?

Well, as the hostess with the mostess I'll volunteer and answer this question first. Around my mid teenage years to late teenage years I came to understand I liked guys but along the way girls had their appeal too. Both had great qualities so in turn I was bi. In High School I kept it a secret for fear of rejection to my peers. My older brother is openly gay and I remember when he was in high school, he was picked on beyond belief so bad that he attempted suicide.

At the time, I was bi -- curious and I went through that whole drastic denial stage. I dated a girl too and even had to tell my mother, and she was not happy. She was born into the "baby boom" generation where a man and a woman were meant to be. She was also not happy with my brother but she accepted him (when he was 18, he and I are seven years apart). Anyway my mother thought it was an experiment or that I was being seduced by the idea of it.

Well, that relationship ended badly, bah! So I was admitting I was bi for the longest time until I met Jessica aka Rogue. She and I had been best friends for six years and we even grew up together. We were alike in so many ways it was scary. I just realized I'm blabbering here lol. :shrug: :angel: Anyway we started dated and we both realized we are in love and we got engaged. My parents utterly adore her and my friends love her too. So because I plan on spending the rest of my life with her, that now makes me gay.

My mother has come to terms with my sexuality, although she doesn't want me to inform too many people. She's afraid I'll end up getting hurt.

And of course Spellbinder is gonna be my Maid of Honor, Titania and Shockwave my bridesmaids lol.

Anyway I know not everyone believes in same sex relationships or marriages. Some support it fully. Either way though, what's your sexuality and what do you believe?

[Shadowsfall]

Since I'm your fiance I guess that doesn't make me straight either. Yeah, I'm a big lesbian and I'm proud to admit it. Everyone I work with knows it... my parents know. My dad and step mother are comfortable with the idea. My dad says as long as I'm happy then thats all that matters and that's exactly how I feel about it. My mother is still trying to get used to the idea. It probably isn't the easiest thing to deal with when your daughter tells you one day that she's dating another girl, but as long as I'm happy I don't see what the big deal is. My sister is straight and has two children and my other two sisters are still only 9 and 10 and think the idea of kissing another girl is "gross." My 10 year old sister is very boy crazy and my other little sister still thinks anything about kissing is gross. She's afraid of getting cooties or something.

I grew up boy crazy too, but as I got older I started to hate guys. I grew up around guys who were complete assholes and tended to date guys like that. The more I started to think about my relationships the more I realized that the only person I had ever really loved wasn't someone I had dated or was dating. I was in love with my best friend. And my best friend was a girl. It took me a long time to actually except it because A) she was my friend and I wasnt sure if I had just confused my feelings and B) I was straight. But the longer we talked the more I realized that it wasnt just a friendship thing. I was in love with a girl and it took her beating it out of me to tell her that. But I'm glad she did and I wouldn't want it any other way. She's the one I'm going to spend the rest of my life with and I don't care who knows or what anyone thinks about it.

[Alice Cullen]

You too are so fucking romatic I'm either gonna cry or hurl. ;)

I'm straight. I LOVE men. White Men, Black Men, Foreign Men, Hairy men. They're all wonderful. :D

you know those people who go around saying they dont judge people of their same sex? they PISS ME OFF. lol... I can appreciate beauty in all forms, I'm not afraid to say "Yeah, she's hot/pretty/sexy etc." Sex appeal is just there. I'll acknowledge it. :p
I'm also one of those people who say "whatever makes you happy." I have plenty of gay and lesbian friends. I've plenty of straight friends. I really don't care about it all all. I have an open mind and if that's what makes you happy, go for it. I hate that Bush wants to unconstitutionalize it. That's such HORSESHIT.

[Jill Monroe]

I straight as well.

I LOVE MEN! Especially black men:o :D

Sexuality is one part of who we are...and i dont let that limit my thinking. there are many women who i would readily admit are attractive or even erotic. I've ALWAYS freely admitted that Madonna is very sexy to me..and i would make out with her in a heart beat lol.


Men and Women should be able to find others of the same gender attractive...but in the end..it comes down to which one will best satisfy you in physical and mental intimacy..and for ME...only a man can do that. :)


as far as "gay marriage" i dont see why its an issue. i really dont. gay people pay taxes in this country...and by that reason ALONE they are guaranteed teh same rights and protection of any other american citizen. this bullshit about "sanctity of marriage" is just garbage...its a total copout when you realize that we live in a country that leads the WORLD in the divorce rate...and we have shows like "who wants to marry a millionare" and "the bachelor" which make commercial mockery out of marriage.:rolleyes:

[Jacob Black]

I am Straight :) I love the ladies and the ladies love me! I really don't think that anyone is really completely straight or completely gay.. I think everyone is somewhere in between. EVERYONE has had a crush on someone of the same sex before or at least found a member of the same sex attractive. For me, I could only have sex with a woman but I have been offered it by a man... just not my thing lol...

So my philosophy is whatever floats your boat or tickles your pickle ;)

[ZorCrow]

I am a 100% Heterosexual male!!! and Proud of it!! I love women of all races. Black Women, White American,Euopean, African, Arabic women (with the long hair thick black hair yess!!!:) , Oriental women, Latina women (I had my first crush ever on a Puerto Rican young lady in the 6th grade read the "dumb things done thread to see how that turned out:eek: ) Brazillian women, and Polyneisan women. even though

I have been accused of favoring lighter complexioned black females and Oriental women:o.

[Foxfire]

Thanks for replying everyone. :D And you like hairy men Lexi? Ewwwww, tell that man to shave! I hate seeing men with tank tops on revealing layers of thick black hair on the shoulders. :sure: :worry: That's just NASTY, go shave or wax honey. lol.

Damn Farrah if you wanted to make out with the Material girl, you should have just bitch slapped Britney and took her place lol. :hehe: :fdevil: I'm sure you'd dance and sing better then her.

[DegrassiFanatic]

I am 100% straight and i Have No problem with gays and lesibians an even BIs Rouge and Foxfire I wish the best for you Marraige is a big step. I love all times of men Black men expecially but i have dated a few other types before

[Tempest]

You hope they love you Brandon LOL. Told ya the men went wild for you.

I'm a hundred percent straight. Me wants a man :) Mwhahahaha. Too bad they don't want me lol. I've never been bi, but most of my friends are either bi or gay, so I totally don't have anything against them. It's their choice and we should have no right to tell them who to love and whatnot like Bush is trying to do. Just happy I live in a state that doesn't fear standing up against him :)

[Dapper Dan]

I am Straight :) I love the ladies and the ladies love me! I really don't think that anyone is really completely straight or completely gay.. I think everyone is somewhere in between. EVERYONE has had a crush on someone of the same sex before or at least found a member of the same sex attractive. For me, I could only have sex with a woman but I have been offered it by a man... just not my thing lol...

So my philosophy is whatever floats your boat or tickles your pickle ;)

Ditto pretty much :) I have several gay/bi friends and I have no problems with it what-so-ever. I do wonder how I've turned out like I have... I grew up in a very very small town in the middle of the bible belt... heh, so lets just say it definately wasn't the most open place to change or new ides...:shrug:

[Shadowsfall]

I guess that makes Heath and I the only lesbians on the board... oh well it just makes us special :) I grew up in a small town too and I think the only gay person I ever even knew about while I was growing up was my uncle. Not that any of y'all wanted to know that but I'm attemtping being social here...

[Foxfire]

I guess that makes Heath and I the only lesbians on the board... oh well it just makes us special :) I grew up in a small town too and I think the only gay person I ever even knew about while I was growing up was my uncle. Not that any of ya'll wanted to know that but I'm attemtping being social here...

"Drop like its hot..." lol, work it beautiful! It does make us very special but its all good. ;) :D

I grew up in a quiet little town but very well to do. But everyone was cool but the word "gay" was never heard until my older brother admitted he was back when he was 18. I was 11 then and I was open to his belief, I thought it was cool. He was the only gay person I knew as well. But after graduating High School I found out there were plenty of gay, bi, and lesbians. But I do live very close to New Paltz, NY so what do ya know! :cool:

[J Soul]

Wow, it seems that a lot of the straight women here love them some black men. I feel honored! :cool:

Keeping with the topic at hand, I am a very heterosexual milk chocolate male. I've been assumed to be gay, bisexual or "a down low brotha" my entire life...I think a lot of that has to do with my upbringing. The way I speak, dress, act, walk, who I associate with and the way treat women. All of my best friends in life, with the exception of 2 have been females and I seem to get along the best with them. I mainly date white women, but I have dated a couple of black women, an Asian and a Hispanic girl. I seem to identify most with white women probably because we have so much in common and it's easier to get along with them better. I'm currently single by choice and haven't been in a relationship for about 2 years now. My career and pursuing my talents is number one in my life, but I am up for getting to know women and having a "cuddle buddy."

Ok, enough about me. My PM box is open. :wave:

[Pam Ravenscroft]

Very interesting topic I must say.

I am hetrosexual, although I fully admit to making out with girls and finding them attractive. Yes, you might say, well then you're bi. But i'm not. My feeling towards guys are sexual. I love dating them and want to marry a man when I find that "special someone". As for girls, I just find it to be fun to joke around and turn my guy friends on by putting on a show. I would never have sex with a woman because I don't find woman sexually attractive to the point of getting turned on. I'm a very open person and fully admit to say "wow she's hot", but that's basically the end of that. Most girls find other woman attractive once in their life, seeing as how woman like to compaire each other and such.

Anyway, so yep, i'm straight. Although if I was in a relationship with a man who wanted to have a threesome...i'm fully for that. LOL. As many of you know. *cough*Heather*cough* LOL.

[FtpIt]

I'm straight. I'm all for people Loving and being happy with whomever...Love has no boundaries or restrictions ;)

[FtpIt]

You too are so fucking romatic I'm either gonna cry or hurl. ;)

I'm straight. I LOVE men. White Men, Black Men, Foreign Men, Hairy men. They're all wonderful. :D

you know those people who go around saying they dont judge people of their same sex? they PISS ME OFF. lol... I can appreciate beauty in all forms, I'm not afraid to say "Yeah, she's hot/pretty/sexy etc." Sex appeal is just there. I'll acknowledge it. :p
I'm also one of those people who say "whatever makes you happy." I have plenty of gay and lesbian friends. I've plenty of straight friends. I really don't care about it all all. I have an open mind and if that's what makes you happy, go for it. I hate that Bush wants to unconstitutionalize it. That's such HORSESHIT.

I like the way you think...

[FtpIt]

Thanks for replying everyone. :D And you like hairy men Lexi? Ewwwww, tell that man to shave! I hate seeing men with tank tops on revealing layers of thick black hair on the shoulders. :sure: :worry: That's just NASTY, go shave or wax honey. lol.

Damn Farrah if you wanted to make out with the Material girl, you should have just bitch slapped Britney and took her place lol. :hehe: :fdevil: I'm sure you'd dance and sing better then her.

You and Farrah need to get over the hair thing...most men have hair...some WOMEN :rolleyes:

[Foxfire]

You and Farrah need to get over the hair thing...most men have hair...some WOMEN :rolleyes:

I could say the same to you my dear. :rolleyes: Each person has their own point of view as does Lexi. I had made a comment that men who are "hairy" are repulsive to me, I have the right to base my opinions. And what I underestimated was her statement, she meant a little hair but her term "hairy" gave me the image of someone looking like a hairy beast.

And Sam, we know ALL about you and your "pizza days." LOL :fdevil:

[FtpIt]

I could say the same to you my dear. :rolleyes: Each person has their own point of view as does Lexi. I had made a comment that men who are "hairy" are repulsive to me, I have the right to base my opinions. And what I underestimated was her statement, she meant a little hair but her term "hairy" gave me the image of someone looking like a hairy beast.

And Sam, we know ALL about you and your "pizza days." LOL :fdevil:
Now Head, you took that too far...I understood what you were saying and I was only giving you a hard time. You better turn off that sensitive mode your operating in...LOL...don't know what you mean by "pizza days" :shrug:

[Jill Monroe]

Now Head, you took that too far...I understood what you were saying and I was only giving you a hard time. You better turn off that sensitive mode your operating in...LOL...don't know what you mean by "pizza days" :shrug:

that "pizza day" thing was directed at the member "Shockwave" (Sam). however.....YOU sir, better be nice to my sister heather...or im gonna have to spank your butt.

and Shockwave, dear, who do you think you're fooling??:rolleyes: you know you lick the carpet all day long...thats why new york carpet world went of business...the customers couldnt find any "carpet" you hadnt gotten excited all over! :hehe: :p

[Alice Cullen]

LOL, because Farrah DOES keep her whip with her.

I am NOT going to ask about "pizza days"..... I'd just as soon not know, LMAO

I think when anyone says the word "hairy", heat thinks of Chewbacca. I know several men with chest hair, I find it VERY sexy, lol, but that's just my taste. There is a distinct point when its too much, lol, but for me, it has to be extreme. I have also seen guys with none, and they can be pretty hot, lol, but in some cases it makes them seem boyish. Take, for example, Orlando Bloom.... mmmm :) I would LOVE to 'take advantage' of him. LOL... I realize he's probably older than I am... but he just has that boyish look about him.

[FtpIt]

LOL, because Farrah DOES keep her whip with her.

I am NOT going to ask about "pizza days"..... I'd just as soon not know, LMAO

I think when anyone says the word "hairy", heat thinks of Chewbacca. I know several men with chest hair, I find it VERY sexy, lol, but that's just my taste. There is a distinct point when its too much, lol, but for me, it has to be extreme. I have also seen guys with none, and they can be pretty hot, lol, but in some cases it makes them seem boyish. Take, for example, Orlando Bloom.... mmmm :) I would LOVE to 'take advantage' of him. LOL... I realize he's probably older than I am... but he just has that boyish look about him.

Bless your heart :D

[Pam Ravenscroft]

Must everyone bring up the pizza! LOL. NOthing even happened with pizza that was sexual...I just threw it against the wall when I was drunk and found sause in places I don't remember being. LOL. SO THERE! :P

And shut your pie whole, Farrah. I never will, nor have I ever ate pussy before, thank you. That just doesn't interest me or turn me on for that matter. lol. However, I find kissing a girl to be very sensual...something a guy can lack sometimes.

[FtpIt]

Must everyone bring up the pizza! LOL. NOthing even happened with pizza that was sexual...I just threw it against the wall when I was drunk and found sause in places I don't remember being. LOL. SO THERE! :P

And shut your pie whole, Farrah. I never will, nor have I ever ate pussy before, thank you. That just doesn't interest me or turn me on for that matter. lol. However, I find kissing a girl to be very sensual...something a guy can lack sometimes.

How come you don't like licking pussy...lol

[Prue Halliwell]

Okay, I don't really believe it's a straight/gay/bi thing. It's not one or another. Sexuality encompasses a whole spectrum. Sure there are some ppl who are straight or gay but I think for the most part everone's somewhere else on the spectrum, usually just leaning one way or another. Kind of like the political spectrum, some ppl are liberal, some conservative but most are a little of both.

As for me personally I've always found myself mostly attracted to guys. I have to say mostly b/c anyone here who knows me knows I have the HUGEST crush on Michelle Rodriguez. I love her. She's amazing. And when I'm drunk I tend to make out with my female friends but that's mostly b/c I know it's safe to make out with them. With a guy they always think they're getting some just b/c you kiss them.*rolls eyes*

To quote a movie (I think, I can't exactly remember where it's from) "I'm not gay. I mean I wouldn't kick Mick Jagger out of bed but I'm not gay."

Oh, and if this is even a question. I am full support in gay marraige and gay rights and whatever. Mostly, I just believe in letting people live their lives however they want as long as it doesn't interfere with mine.

[Osiris]

Im straight, and I have a question for those who are lesbian. No offense, but it appears to me that most lesbians begin gay relationships after failed heterosexual ones. Is it just me? My sister is a lesbian or at least in a lesbian relationship and when I asked her why that is the excuse she gave me. Not to mention my ex-wife and other family members, I know Im getting too personal, but it just seems to be the "in" thing right now.

I don't care either way, I had a female Cpl friend in the Marine Corps who turned me from my homophobe ways, and Im ok with it, Im just trying to understand....

[Foxfire]

How come you don't like licking pussy...lol
LOL! FtpIt your very bold in that statement with Shockwave. ;) But she already said it "That just doesn't interest me or turn me on for that matter." Not everyone can "go down." Some women are just curious or as some label it "bi - curious." Basically they can kiss or caress but nothing more. I would know I originally started out as bi curious and well "curiosity got the cat." In more than one way. LMAO!

Im straight, and I have a question for those who are lesbian. No offense, but it appears to me that most lesbians begin gay relationships after failed heterosexual ones. Is it just me? My sister is a lesbian or at least in a lesbian relationship and when I asked her why that is the excuse she gave me. Not to mention my ex-wife and other family members, I know Im getting too personal, but it just seems to be the "in" thing right now.



That's a good question Osiris. ;) :nod: Being a lesbian, I'll answer that question for you. Like your sister, I too was in a close relationship with a guy, who I knew for years, he was my best friend. I believed I was in love with him and in the end he broke my heart. After that incident, I stayed away from men, relationship wise. I was scared of getting my heart broken by Angelo. Around my mid teenage years a couple of my friends were bisexual. It didn't bother me but after hearing their stories, I pondered the idea. I did find women attractive.

For me, it was more curiosity. I always heard stories of how women could "please" better than SOME men (not all). It wasn't until High School I began to understand who I was. Although I did hide my sexuality from everyone including my family and friends. I thought it was a "sickness" that would go away, that was my denial period. But then I realized this was who I was and what I enjoyed.

I think for some women its different. Some do it for attention whether to be rebellious against their parents or to get the guys attention by arousing them with two sensual women. Some even follow the crowd because its "in." And in that sense it annoyed me to find women leading false lives.

But for your question, I think some people are tired of being in a heterosexual relationship, so they want something unique and different, which could be the result of your sister. There may be many other factors for her. In the end, I think some women are fed up with men so they try women. :shrug:

[Foxfire]

As stated in the bible, its "normal" for a man and a woman to be together and raise a family. But what about homosexuals? The bible has taught each of us that its "wrong" to be in a relationship with someone of the same sex. But is it really?

My mother and I go head to head in this heated debate. She feels my relationship with a woman is "not normal" against it goes against the bible. But I say, why should religion or a book tell me how to live my life. Shouldn't God "love us all?" If God loves all then why shouldn't he love me any less?

Even marriage is a sacred thing in our tradition but its only for "men and women." How is that fair?

Personally, no one is going to tell me what's right or wrong or if I'm normal. What is normality anyway? In this county there's no such word really. I hate religious people who throw their beliefs on me like my mother. Yes, we're all entitled to our beliefs but don't harass me with them. If I'm happy with someone of the same sex what does it matter? Its my life.

What do the rest of you think about this?

[Anchovy]

Ok, gotta throw in my 2 cents....

I'm..well, I'm pretty darn straight. I LOVE men. Love them. Tall, short, pale, tan, freckled (ESPECIALLY freckled ;) ) black, white, Hispanic, redheads, dark-haired guys, blonds, all kinds! The only sexual attractions I've ever had have been to men. I'm engaged to one particular man (sigh! I miss Jim....) and I just love men, the way they talk, the way they move, mmmmm.... I have made out with some of my friends (mostly because...well, it's an all-girls school in a town that thinks a Farmer's Market is a swinging good time. What else do we have to do on Tuesday nights? Homework? Please.) Anyway, I've nver gone further than some smooching and a little groping with a girl. I just didn't enjoy it that much. I think women are hot, and I like to look at hot women, I'm just not particularly interested in doing anything sexual with them. For instance, I think Eliza Dushku is hot like habeneros, but when it comes to getting down and dirty, point me in the direction of Jude Law or Clive Owen. *drool* Orlando Bloom, Sean Bean, the Rock, Usher, Dan Radcliffe (yes, the 15-year-old kid who plays Harry Potter. Is that creepy? I'm only 19!)

Hmm, I think i'll post this now before it gets weird ;)

[Jenna Jameson]

I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin. The bible may say that only a man and woman can be together, but homosexuality existed long b4 the bible did :nod: I personally have never really understood or been into religion. Like you, I don't like having some book tell me who to love, what to do, etc. Anyways, sin is just a scare tactic to keep the worship alive ;) *hides from religious folks*

It's funny how folks calling themselves Christian have beaten up - even killed - homosexuals. Sounds much worse of a sin to me than being gay :shrug: There's other things much worse too, like drugs, sexual abuse, war etc. These things should be focussed on more, rather than personal sexual preferences. It's not like the whole world is going gay or anything (tho the message board world has :elaugh: ) Thankfully today's society is much more tolerant. I can only hope that society keeps on becoming more accepting :D Umm I don't think I answered this too good LOL *slaps headcold* :worry::blah: YAAAAY TEAM! :kiss::shrug:

[Anchovy]

No no no no no. Sinning. Pah! You know that's just silly religious judgemental gobbledy-gook. *scoff* besides if it WAS a sin, it wouldn't be a BIGGER sin than anything else. Like oh say....premarital sex (blush) so who am I to judge?

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is I don't know if people are born homosexual or if it's just a preference or what, but whatever the case it is NOT worng, shameful or evil. It's just people loving other people, and what in the world is wrong with that?

[Osiris]

Well, I guess Im going to have to be one of those "religious" crazy people. But, according to my faith(Islam) homosexuality is a sin, because it goes against the natural order in which God created all things. In Islam we believe that everything was created with an aim and purpose and that man and women are equal halves of a whole and without each other they are incomplete.

Sin is any trangression against the natural order or will of God. Stealing, Adultry, fornication, Murder, etc. are all sins and there is no sin greater than another.

We believe that overall we serve a God of Mercy and even though we(man) think we have it all figured out God Alone is the best knower. No one can no for sure the exact purpose He has for us all, so according to Islamic beliefs it is more important that you try to live a pious life than to focus on sexual orientation. Ours is a faith of deeds, where our good actions are weighed against the bad.

So theorectically, according to Islam if homosexuality is a sin, but a homosexual person is very pious, he/she is closer to heaven than the heterosexual habitual, fornicator, adulter, and murderer.

Furthermore, in Islam we believe that everyone will eventually go to heaven anyway, so condeming someone to hell is just stupid.

I didnt want to be long winded, but I just wanted to offer an alternate opinion.

We are all the Children of God and capable to err, Im sorry but im more concerned with poverty, murder, and illness than who's sleeping or loves who.

49:11 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.

[Osiris]

I love women....especially those who have cast a spell on my heart.....

[Pam Ravenscroft]

Is there a hidden message in that Osiris? ;)

[Pam Ravenscroft]

I don't think homosexuality is a sin at all. You can't help who you love whether it be of the same or opposite sex. Personally I believe people who lable homosexuals as "sinners" because it's stated in the Bible are closed minded. But that's just my opinion. I have nothing against the Bible or any religion for that matter, but what I am against are the people who use their religion or the Bible as an excuse to knock others down and their lifestyles.

[Jill Monroe]

Osiris makes a very good point

Furthermore, in Islam we believe that everyone will eventually go to heaven anyway, so condeming someone to hell is just stupid.

I didnt want to be long winded, but I just wanted to offer an alternate opinion.

We are all the Children of God and capable to err, Im sorry but im more concerned with poverty, murder, and illness than who's sleeping or loves who.


its very well said. its nice to see a person not use their religious beliefs or spirituality to purvey hatred or intolerance of diversity in others. BUT ultimately i agree with Shockwave. i do NOT feel that homosexuality is a sin. A person cannot help who they are or how they feel. sexuality is something we are born with...and its ONE part of who we are.

Some of these same christians/evangelicals and even the CONSERVATIVES who condemn gays and lesbians as being morally bankrupt and whatever else are some of the BIGGEST FREAKS IN THE BEDROOM doing all sorts of perverse things that are far more outrageous than merely being intimate with someone of the same gender. People need to STOP condemning others and worrying about themselves. thats the problem in America right now...this neo conservative movement has brought with it this idea that we ALL need to conform to the standards and ideas of a certain moral/religous standing and that isnt right.

and if your going to talk about "sin"...well sin is sin..if you believe in "God" ..and dont put a spin on what the bible says, then youll know that God dispises ALL sin the same way and so the liar or the theif is JUST AS BAD as the "homosexual". according to the bible..there is only ONE sin that is "unforgivable" and that is the sin of Blasphemy against the holy spirit. [told you i grew up in the pentacostal church for years LOL :D]

[Pam Ravenscroft]

Osiris makes a very good point




its very well said. its nice to see a person not use their religious beliefs or spirituality to purvey hatred or intolerance of diversity in others. BUT ultimately i agree with Shockwave. i do NOT feel that homosexuality is a sin. A person cannot help who they are or how they feel. sexuality is something we are born with...and its ONE part of who we are.

Some of these same christians/evangelicals and even the CONSERVATIVES who condemn gays and lesbians as being morally bankrupt and whatever else are some of the BIGGEST FREAKS IN THE BEDROOM doing all sorts of perverse things that are far more outrageous than merely being intimate with someone of the same gender. People need to STOP condemning others and worrying about themselves. thats the problem in America right now...this neo conservative movement has brought with it this idea that we ALL need to conform to the standards and ideas of a certain moral/religous standing and that isnt right.

and if your going to talk about "sin"...well sin is sin..if you believe in "God" ..and dont put a spin on what the bible says, then youll know that God dispises ALL sin the same way and so the liar or the theif is JUST AS BAD as the "homosexual". according to the bible..there is only ONE sin that is "unforgivable" and that is the sin of Blasphemy against the holy spirit. [told you i grew up in the pentacostal church for years LOL :D]

Well said!

[Osiris]

hmmmm

[DonDaddyD]

I'm straight, I love women I don't care where they are from as long as I find them attractive though I am known for mainly going for my sisters (we tend to have more in common and they seem to be able to handle me better, admittidly I can be a lot of hard work and have been told I'm 'high maintinance').

My one weakness is green eyes (not found within the sisters) Just looking at them does it for me, seeing can easily put me in the mood for a whole day. Even thinking about them makes my chest tight, my mouth water and my muscles tense up!

[Osiris]

For the record, there are sisters with green eyes, I have family members with green eyes....

[Jacob Black]

How come you don't like licking pussy...lol

LOL! I was like shocked at that comment..

For me.. Been there, done that.. don't know if I will want to take a trip to P Town again but hey I always said I would NEVER go down so I guess I just change from person to person lol!

I agree about that Sexuality is a spectrum.. I used to be a really confused kid when I was growing up. I was raised by all women who had been scorned by men so there was seriously NEVER a man while I was growing up in my house... So I never learned guy things like trucks and sports and all that.. I just knew about girl things and what girls did.. So when I was in junior high there was a LONG time when I thought I was gay.. I thought girls were attractive but I found guys attractive as well.. I just didn't know what was WRONG with me..

That was always a problem for me in highschool was that since I was always surrounded by girls I was more feminine then most guys and since I had a lot of female and gay friends people always thought I was gay lol.. Don't know why.. But when I finally started dating a girl I just knew deep down that it felt right and as I have grown up more and gotten alot more independent life, I have become a lot less confused..

I am a pretty open person though.. I think I would pretty much try anything once and I have made out with a guy before, I know it sounds weird lol, but I was at a party and we were playing spin the bottle lol and I was with a lot of my straight and gay friends and low and behold one of my gay friends lands it on me.. I didn't want to seem like some bigot and be like "I am NOT kissing you!" when they had been my friends for years.. So I took a deep breath and went for it lol.. I got SLIGHTLY uncomfortable when the tongue became involved but it was an interesting thing I will never forget.. It was basically like kissing a girl with slightly drier lips lol...

But anyway.. I classify myself as a Straight guy who isn't afraid to experiment ;)

[Pam Ravenscroft]

Good for you Brandon. I'm so glad you can be open with all of us. ;) Most guys would be throwing that in their closet and locking it up. lol

[DonDaddyD]

For the record, there are sisters with green eyes, I have family members with green eyes....

Are there:eek: when did this happen!http://www.screen-gems.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Clairvoyance]

I have absolutely no problem with other individuals’ sexual origination. Some people, such as myself, tend to not judge others’ characters by preferences of sexuality or religion, or by race, culture, background, skin color…and so on. I believe that each living being is given certain choices and privileges that NO ONE can take away. On the other hand, many times when a person is a homosexual or a bisexual they feel this way not by discussion, but by nature.

I am a lesbian and I am proud. Except for the one about only lesbian girls liking comic books [which is a complete untruth], I fit not one of the ‘lesbian’ stereotypes. I became a lesbian not as a result of extreme liking toward the same sex, but because of my EXTREME DISliking toward the opposite. I, being a young woman, do not find myself sexually attracted to anyone once so ever. When I do decide to peruse a relationship of that kind, I can see my chances of falling in love with a woman greater than ever being able to feel love and comfort from and toward a man.

If anyone says that I am too young too post here I will become angry…

[Jill Monroe]

I second Shockwave's statement, Brandon! I am very glad that you were able to explore yourself and your sexuality to sort out your feelings. it can be a SCAREY thing for someone to face that kind of thing in themself ...being that we live in a country that is so unfair and unkind to gays and lesbians....and for a young man to be working through his sexuality like that...well like sam said...MOST men would just throw it far back into the closet and repress it rather than face it and work through it.

whoever you are...you be it and be it unashamed. Sexuality is something evolves and changes just as the rest of our being does.


Marla, honey RELAX! ;) if you have something to say about any given topic, you're welcomed to post ANYWHERE on this board. I invited you here personally so that you would have a place to convey your thoughts and NOT go through what you went through on MD.

[Jacob Black]

Well thanks for the comments lol :)

And Marie, if you want to be a Lesbian go ahead and be one! Just don't hook up with that STD Factory HEATHER! but anway ;)

I think this is a great topic for debate and I am glad everyone is being so open.. I personally wouldn't give up on the Opposite Sex because of past bad experiences.. Marie You are YOUNG but that is a good thing.. You have plenty of years ahead of you to find out what you want. I mean there are some times when I still look at myself in the mirror and be like "What if I am gay?" or "What would people say?" but you know what.. it doesn't matter WHAT people think of things you have done as long as you are happy with you... there are probably PLENTY of people in my hometown who think I am gay, but I don't give a fuck lol.. If I decide five years down the line to date a guy, then I am going to do regardless of what people think.. I am sorry but I am the first to admit that I am completely NOT a guys' guys as I am sure most of you all have noticed.. I don't give into the macho man standards that society pushes on today's youth.. I think it is so disrespectful to watch a girl walk by and then when she is out of ear shot be like "look at the tits on that broad" or "I'd like to hit that shit!" .. I mean seriously.. how about just going up and saying "Hi, my name is ____. How are you today?" or "Let me get the door for you.." I have always been like that. I don't know about cars, I don't know about motorcycles or ANYTHING like that, but that doesn't NOT make me a MAN. I am a guy who RESPECTS women for the GODDESSES that they are and someone who when I have a family WILL BE THERE for them no matter WHAT. I am a man who is from generations of STRONG women. I want to be a provider and a protector of my family and to me.. THAT IS A MAN! It's not how much PUSSY I got in a weekend or how fast I can fix a truck because at the end of the day all a woman wants is to know she is loved and protected..

Okay.. Whoah I had a little rant going on there lol...

But my view on Sexuality is that there are SO many men out there who have been told their whole lives to be a GUY's GUY and to puff their chest everytime they get pissed off and to get as many girls as possible, but to defame any girl who is sexually empowered and it is just retarded because NOBODY is 100 percent straight or gay.. My friend's dad is a College Professor of Psychology at Chico State and he was talking to me about this saying that if we were on a scale with one end straight and the other end gay that NOBODY would be on either end, that everwhere would be somewhere in the middle. We are primarily attracted to looks but if you strip away ways to identify from male and female then we are all just human beings and then humans would fall in love with humans.

[willblade]

As for this guy, i'm straight and loving it. Havn't had a serious thought about some attraction to a guy, despite like J Soul, dealing with people thinking i'm gay or something because of my relations with women. For me, there are just too many gorgeous women in the world to even consider the notion of anything else. Growing up, most of the problems i've had have come from other black people just for being me, and i tend to just go where i'm wanted and be myself no matter what, which has led me to have mostly white and other races as friends, with a few black friends somewhere in there. I've never been 'black enough' to be around most that i've come across through school, and even here in college. That being said, my preference in women although it spans all races on this lovely planet, tends to go a bit towards white women.

As for views on sexuality..i think sexuality is just another aspect of who you are, no matter what may be. From straight, bi, gay..and other things.. it's determined by you. Now, of course, it can be greatly swayed in one way or another by outside factors. Upbringing, personal experiences, interactions with others and their preferences, etc. But overall, i believe that love is something that should sought after for whatever your preference may be, and everyone who treats people decently deserves to have that closeness with someone their attracted to, male or female. Besides, that's their life, and not mine. Why am I gonna be bugging over that? Got better things to do.

Alright. I'm hungry, and wanna get some food, so i'm through talking and out of here. And as a couple of people here know, i'm literally a human garbage disposal that must be fed frequently. Later.

[Mat]

I'm straight but I have no problem showing affection for my fellow tripods. I've even danced with a gay man at a gay bar before and I can securely say that I wasn't drunk and I was well-aware of what I was doing. For some reason it's never really bothered me.

I find that a lot of straight men who have problems with gay men think all gay men are out to sleep with them. Aside from being an egotistical point of view, it's just plain silly.

On more than one occasion I've spoken to straight friends of mine and there's a general concensus that you can love another man to the same degree that you love a woman. You just can't get past the fact it's in no way shape or form appealing to think of yourself with that man physically.

I love all types of women, though I tend to prefer brunettes. Maybe I'll get lucky and find myself a nice latin girl, though I doubt that'll happen up here in the usually-frozen north.

[Anchovy]

Mat, that's hot. Open-minded men are such a find! ;) At least down here they are. Most of the guys I know are stereotypical beer-swilling, Pro-football watching, John Deere-owning, uptight, homophobic Bubbas. That's (part of the reasons) why I'm dating the guy I'm dating. He's not like that (well, beer and football aside. He's not a homophobe anyway). And apparently, neither are the guys around here at Screen-gems. Why do you think that is? Do open-minded people gravitate towards message boards? No, cause I've met some crazy people online...Could just be THIS board, lol.

Anyway, is it just me or is it easier for a woman to be open about her sex life with her gay friends, whether they are male or female? I know I am. I noticed this the other day when I was out buying condoms. Usually I make Jim purchase them while I wander throught the makeup section, but when I saw that my friend Ley, a gay man, was the cashier, I rushed to the counter with Jim. And I have had more open conversations about say...oral sex with friends like Thea (a lesbian friend) or Ley than I ever have had with my closest girlfriend, Ashley. She and I tend to talk about the 'dating' aspect of dating rather than the sex aspect. You know, whether a guy is worth it, crappy things they do, what have you. A little strange. Do y'all think it's just me, or have other people experienced this too?

[Bane]

I enjoy the best of both worlds, I guess you could say, though recently women have begun to disgust me. Whatever. It hasn't been as much of a big deal for me, but in high school the whole sexualty stigma has made it difficult for me to truly be myself.

[Jill Monroe]

I'm straight but I have no problem showing affection for my fellow tripods. I've even danced with a gay man at a gay bar before and I can securely say that I wasn't drunk and I was well-aware of what I was doing. For some reason it's never really bothered me.

I find that a lot of straight men who have problems with gay men think all gay men are out to sleep with them. Aside from being an egotistical point of view, it's just plain silly.

On more than one occasion I've spoken to straight friends of mine and there's a general concensus that you can love another man to the same degree that you love a woman. You just can't get past the fact it's in no way shape or form appealing to think of yourself with that man physically.

I love all types of women, though I tend to prefer brunettes. Maybe I'll get lucky and find myself a nice latin girl, though I doubt that'll happen up here in the usually-frozen north.

Mat, Anchovy is right...THAT IS HOT! :nod: an open minded man is a SEXY MAN....a man who is confident and secure....and able to do whatever he wants without thinking its an automatic threat to his masculinity...good for you!

[ZorCrow]

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, ISLAMIC FAITH, AND JEWISH FAITHS. .

I am a Christian, homosexuality is a sin, and embracing it the way our society doesn't make it right.

[Dapper Dan]

I'm just curious..... in my church and all all we use is the "King James Version" of the bible.... we don't have any of the bibles that have been screwed around with by modern publishers adding their own things into their so called "transulation". Is there a mention of homesexuality in the King James Version of the bibe.... which experts agree is the closest thing to the original bible transulated into english? I've seen people quote things out of the modern bibles but those are interperted and put into modern speak and deviate far from the King James Version, let alone the original.

[ZorCrow]

Translation, smaslation, the greek and hebrew texts say the same things as the English texts. Those who argue mis translation do so in vain. However, here are the biblical scriptures on homosexuality. Remember the word homosexuality wasn't around when a lot of the writings of antiquity were written . . therefore it's made plane as this. A lot of folks on here don't believe the bible anyway, so I usually stray for posting scripture, but not this case.

Also, one more thing, So many people are against gay marriage, so many people are having their voices ignored. I wonder why is that?

OLD TESTAMENT

LEVITICUS CHAPTER 18 VERSE 22

Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

LEVETICUS CHAPTER 20 VERSE 13

Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I KINGS CHAPTER 14 VERSES 22-24

1Ki 14:22 And Judah did evil in the sight of the Lord, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins which they had committed, above all that their fathers had done.

1Ki 14:23 For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.

1Ki 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord cast out before the children of Israel.

I KINGS CHAPTER 15 VERSES 11-12

1Ki 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did David his father.

1Ki 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

I KINGS CHAPTER 22 VERSES 45-46

1Ki 22:45 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, and his might that he shewed, and how he warred, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?

1Ki 22:46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

II KINGS CHAPER 23 VERSES 6-7

2Ki 23:6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the Lord, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people.

2Ki 23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

ISAIAH CHAPTER 4 VERSE 1 (THEY WERE LESBIANS)

Is 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

JESUS DEFINES MARRIAGE (ST. MATTHEW CHAPTER 19: VERSES 4-6

Mt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Mt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mt 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

ROMANS CHAPTER 1 VERSES 24-31

Ro 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Ro 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Ro 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Ro 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

I CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 6 VERSES 9-10

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

[Dapper Dan]

Translation, smaslation, ......


Ask any researcher, statistician, scientist, etc. and they will tell you that transulation is a very imporant factor when going from one language to another and from one culture to another.
I suppose I've just about lost every bit of faith I had in the bible as I went through college..... I was raised in church and brought up Baptist (my hometown was like in the center of the bible belt)..... but it just seems like I don't agree with most organized religions now-a-days. "Spiritual but not religious" I suppose is the best term that can apply to me.... :sad:

[ZorCrow]

anAsk any researcher, statistician, scientist, etc. and they will tell you that transulation is a very imporant factor when going from one language to another and from one culture to another.
I suppose I've just about lost every bit of faith I had in the bible as I went through college..... I was raised in church and brought up Baptist (my hometown was like in the center of the bible belt)..... but it just seems like I don't agree with most organized religions now-a-days. "Spiritual but not religious" I suppose is the best term that can apply to me.... :sad:

Dan, I am going to recommend the following book. It deals with everything from questions about the history of the bible and translations, to alleged bible contradiction and errors. I have the book and it's brilliant. It's a short book and easy read, you are a smart guy you can handle it.

For Christians and Non Christians, Athiests, for folks who believe the bible to the the infallible word of GOD (like me) and for those who think it's nothing more than fiction . . . this is a good book about the Bible and the Christian faith . .

Who Made God? And Answers to Over 100 Other Tough Questions of Faith - Editor: Ravi Zacharias, Norman L. Geisler By: Ravi Zacharias


Who Made God? And Answers to Over 100 Other Tough Questions of Faith
Editor: Ravi Zacharias, Norman L. Geisler
By: Ravi Zacharias

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[Erika King]

Well Zorcrow I am sorry but if you believe the damn Bible on everything it says than you are PRO Slavery ANTI Women and pretty much ANTI everything.

When Slavery was Condemned They used the Authority of Aristotle to show that Slavery was part of Natural Law. The Bible was QUOTED to show that slavery was divinely ordained and approved.

When Women wanted the right to vote they tried to show that Women being allowed in politics was unnatural and In FACT, the one of the Congregation of Minisisters in.. Massachusets I believe even said the following:

"The appropriate duties and influence of woman are stated in the New Testament. . . . The power of woman is in her dependence, flowing from the consciousness of the weakness which God has given her for her protection. . . . When she assumes the place and tone of man as a public reformer . . . she yields the power which God has given her . . . and her character becomes unnatural..."

And When the Legal Segregation of Races was trying to stop. They thought it was unnatural AGAIN for races to mix, They used the BIBLE and Nature to prove their point saying things like Bluejays and Robins don't mix to produce new birds, so people of different races should follow the same example.

NOW, Nearly ALL Americans believe that Slavery, Segregation and denying Women's Suffrage were not good for our people! That is why you don't see anybody who wants to be taken SERIOUSLY takes quotes from the Bible on the defense of Slavery, Racial Segregation or Women's Rights.

You can't look at those things listed above and treat them differently from Homosexuality. They are all rooted in OPRESSION! Slavery and Segregation of African American People as well as people from other races, the defaming of Women and the Persecution of Homosexuals all deny dignity, equality and the rights of human beings on a basis that has no fact or moral reasoning.

AND According to Paul, I don't even remember the verse or whatever but Everything is permitted as long as it causes no harm or is helpful. Even if Paul defames Homosexuality he can't say what he just said above and them DEFAME...

I am sorry but the above all thing of God is that we are all loving and all giving. You cannot "Honor thy Father" if your father is gay? That is a little contradictory..

So before you start brining the BIBLE into this to say that being GAY is a Sin, you must look at all the other things the bible claims is wrong.. you can't pick and CHOOSE from the Bible if you are going to use it to defend ONE of your own personal beliefs, it doesn't work that way.

[ZorCrow]

Actually Erika King, as much as you made that argument you are only telling HALF of history and half the fact. Being black, I can tell you even though some folks misused the gospel to justify slavery, many folks, and many Christians that you probably have never heard of actually used the bible and preached AGAINST SLAVERY . . .

However, folks are not taught that . . . many slaves saw the bible and read it to understand and learn that they were Children of GOD and not animals. When you quote history, especially black history (since I am black) make sure you tell the whole story, not just the fraction that supports your argument.

Also, you arguments about the bible show your lack of understanding of scripture
Honor thy Father and Mother means respect your parents, you can respect someone and actually not agree with how they live. I know many Christians whose parents are Agnostic and Athiests, they dont' agree with thier beliefs but they still show them honor and respect.

Get real . . . also, the question posed in this forum was not about SIN in general it was about IS HOMOSEXUALITY A SIN . . . and according to the bible it is. Stop trying to spin the subject away from the matter at hand.

[Erika King]

But Zorcrow, yet again you talk about the Bible Preaching AGAINST Slavery..

The Bible also preaches FOR people being not judgemental and for people to be ALL loving..

And no matter what you say, you cannot RESPECT someone who you believe is committing a SIN, no matter how you slice, you still look at them and pass judgement on them, if you wouldn't have passed judgement, then it wouldn't be an issue on whether or not you agree with their lifestyle because it wouldn't be YOUR place to agree with them or not...

So, how can you sit there and SAY that the bible was Contradictory against Slavery and Segregation but NOT homosexuality? That seems a TAD short sighted to me?

[Bane]

I've had this argument with my parents about a million times over, and it always ends up the same way:

When all of their stereotypes and misconceptions are thrown out the window, their final defense is that homosexuality is "unnatural". What is "unnatural?" What abides to nature?

Is it that men aren't suited to have sex with other men? Anatomy would say otherwise, but I'll spare the details because I don't think it's necessary.

Is it that homosexuals cannot bear children? Well, what would that make those who are disabled or physically incapable of bearing..are they a sin unto themselves because their bodies came with flaws?

Trying to preach the "natural" argument is dangerous, and, I promise you, as a person who's invested countless hours to debating every taboo topic out there, it won't get you ANYWHERE. Even when we're talking about religious matters.

[Mat]

I think if two people love one another, regardless of how that love manifests itself, it cannot be a sin. You can argue about the decency and purity of so many things in this world, but the minute you start picking apart the meaning of love, of two peoples affection for one another which can be so selfless and pure, that's the moment I think you've lost all credibility, in my opinion.

I've had similar discussions with a gay friend of mine before and one thing I brought up to him as food for thought was that I never think that homosexual relationships will ever receive the amount of respect that heterosexual relationships do. And not because of religion or social stigmas, but because when you look at both forms of romantic relationships only one of them is capable of creating life - the heterosexual relationships.

I'm not trying to argue on what's natural or unnatural. I'm just making the point that the creation of life, of bringing someone new into this world is something almost universally respected (even if the couple is ill-prepared for it, but that's another rant).
Hopefully as time goes on more gay couples will find acceptance for their lifestyles.

[Mat]

Mat, Anchovy is right...THAT IS HOT! :nod: an open minded man is a SEXY MAN....a man who is confident and secure....and able to do whatever he wants without thinking its an automatic threat to his masculinity...good for you!

*laughs*
Thanks, I never really thought about it that way. Now I can claim to dance better than a gay man, if nothing else (having a guy grind my leg like left me resolved to be a better lover.) ;)

[ZorCrow]

But Zorcrow, yet again you talk about the Bible Preaching AGAINST Slavery..

The Bible also preaches FOR people being not judgemental and for people to be ALL loving..

And no matter what you say, you cannot RESPECT someone who you believe is committing a SIN, no matter how you slice, you still look at them and pass judgement on them, if you wouldn't have passed judgement, then it wouldn't be an issue on whether or not you agree with their lifestyle because it wouldn't be YOUR place to agree with them or not...

So, how can you sit there and SAY that the bible was Contradictory against Slavery and Segregation but NOT homosexuality? That seems a TAD short sighted to me?

Funny, you dropped you Afro Americans argument once you found out I was black. Also, I NEVER SAID THE BIBLE WAS CONTRADICTORY ON SLAVERY OR SEGREGATION . . . what kind of crap are you reading?
The slave masters were wrong in using the bible to justify their evil,
their raping, their enslavement of US black people. Black People and White Abolitionist who were Christians saw the TRUE message of the Gospel in the bible.

Also, you can honor and respect your parents or anyone who's sinning.
The thing is I am not judging or condemining anyone by saying HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN IN THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION how is that judgemental? Then by posting bible scriptures that show it for CHRISTIANS how is that hypocritical are judgemental?

If you are not a Christian what do you care anyway? I am talking about Christian Doctrine, and Christian faith. Not about personal views, your view or Hindu views, I am talking about CHRISTIAN VIEWS. Also, you have given me NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES to go against anything I said, only your own opinion of a book you obviously don't know.

Maybe I should give you my opinion of "The Merchant of Venice" by Williams Shakespeare, but wait, I HAVE NEVER READ IT AND DON'T KNOW IT WELL ENOUGH TO DEBATE it. Speaking from emotion is one thing, speaking from a belief's doctrine and teachings is another.

To another point if Charles Manson used Dr. Suess's Cat in the Hat to justify killing folks where is the fault? It's with Charles Manson not the Cat in the hat. I tell you folks .

[Jill Monroe]

let's not start trying to use the "afro american" argument as leverage one way OR the other. OBVIOUSLY a white person will NEVER understand FIRST HAND what blacks have experienced as far as unjust and unfair treatment. its an embarrassing blemish on america's history (which isnt that great anyway) but at the same time, WHY is it that you seem to get defensive and almost antagonistic when parallels are made between the mistreatment of blacks and the mistreatment of gays? what are we not understanding about that..because its not the first time its happened in a thread like this. Cruelty is cruelty...it doesnt matter when it happened or to whom. NO ONE should be trying to suggest that they or their race is MORE victimized than they other...because throughout ALL of human history we have seen many sad and embarrasing examples of just how truly cruel, and unkind we can be to one another...and in some cases...there were attempts at justification in the name of RELIGION :eyeroll:

and if i may just say, Zorcrow..there is MORE to this world than JUST the "christian doctorine" or the "christian view" NOBODY should be wasting precious time trying to tout their religion or belief above everyone else's and pass it off as gospel/law....MAYBE if more people kept THAT in mind..we wouldnt have such a tremendous divide in society in america now.

and finally, despite the scriptures you posted (which could be interpreted any number of ways) the bible STILL does NOT SAY OUT RIGHT that "homosexuals should be condemned or mistreated" OR that "homosexuality is a sin" its just NOT THERE in ANY text ANYWHERE in the bible.

[Osiris]

Well, Im definitely am not going to quote the Bible its a flawed document period.

Nor will I get into its poor translation and piecing together.

But I do have a question Zorcrow, who taught you black history and the history of the Church?

Because you pretty much fibbed a lot concerning it. First of all, the Slaves were Muslims and Animists, they were TAUGHT Christianity and the most often used conversionist verses was the sermon on the mount "Slaves OBEY your masters" ring a bell? Christianity is a slave making doctrine always has, because it doesnt rely on logic, but blind faith, the funny thing is that Jesus(PBUH) was quoted as saying if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch(hell), yet most Christians are spiritually blind.

The slaves were not allowed to read at all, especially the bible, and when they were allowed to read the bible, black preachers were trained as to what parts could be taught.

But Im not going to go too deep on religious history, something Im a student of BTW,

The topic demands an answer, and even in the most vague of circumstances, homosexuality is commonly viewed as a sin in all of the Abrahamic or Semetic religions.

However, Especially in Islam and even in Christianity and Judaism, NO SIN is greater than anyother, and what really pisses me off about the Christian Right, is this Moral Hypocrisy thats going on in America.

Christians are so busy condeming Gays, Harry Potter, Muslims, etc. and everything else they fear, yet those in Power who claim to be Christians and are supported by the masses of Christians produce policies that kill, starve, and steal from hundreds DAILY. While the Churches are getting bigger and bigger, people in America are starving and suffering. While they are busy singing and dancing on Sunday, children in the street have no joy on Monday.

Im sick and tired of the hypcrisy, instead of worrying about whos sleeping with who, try to be real Christians for a change, and turn swords into plowshares, hate into love, heal the sick and the broken hearted, what ever happened to greater things than this you shall do?

This is why Christianity is on a death march and loosing members daily and no one is converting anymore, because Christians have lost their way, and their religion has become a joke.

Instead of worrying and speaking out on REAL issues, they have become more involved with mega churches, books, cars, choirs, and pointing the finger at those they don't like. Swatting at a gnat, but will let a camel pass through the head of a needle!

[ZorCrow]

Well, Im definitely am not going to quote the Bible its a flawed document period.

Nor will I get into its poor translation and piecing together.

But I do have a question Zorcrow, who taught you black history and the history of the Church?

Because you pretty much fibbed a lot concerning it. First of all, the Slaves were Muslims and Animists, they were TAUGHT Christianity and the most often used conversionist verses was the sermon on the mount "Slaves OBEY your masters" ring a bell? Christianity is a slave making doctrine always has, because it doesnt rely on logic, but blind faith, the funny thing is that Jesus(PBUH) was quoted as saying if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch(hell), yet most Christians are spiritually blind.

The slaves were not allowed to read at all, especially the bible, and when they were allowed to read the bible, black preachers were trained as to what parts could be taught.

But Im not going to go too deep on religious history, something Im a student of BTW,

The topic demands an answer, and even in the most vague of circumstances, homosexuality is commonly viewed as a sin in all of the Abrahamic or Semetic religions.

However, Especially in Islam and even in Christianity and Judaism, NO SIN is greater than anyother, and what really pisses me off about the Christian Right, is this Moral Hypocrisy thats going on in America.

Christians are so busy condeming Gays, Harry Potter, Muslims, etc. and everything else they fear, yet those in Power who claim to be Christians and are supported by the masses of Christians produce policies that kill, starve, and steal from hundreds DAILY. While the Churches are getting bigger and bigger, people in America are starving and suffering. While they are busy singing and dancing on Sunday, children in the street have no joy on Monday.

Im sick and tired of the hypcrisy, instead of worrying about whos sleeping with who, try to be real Christians for a change, and turn swords into plowshares, hate into love, heal the sick and the broken hearted, what ever happened to greater things than this you shall do?

This is why Christianity is on a death march and loosing members daily and no one is converting anymore, because Christians have lost their way, and their religion has become a joke.

Instead of worrying and speaking out on REAL issues, they have become more involved with mega churches, books, cars, choirs, and pointing the finger at those they don't like. Swatting at a gnat, but will let a camel pass through the head of a needle!

Wow, such error in your response, you seem to know very little about Christians and Slaves, and Slaves did read passges, not all slaves were forbidden or did as they were told, and not all black people who came to America were slaves, and not. Yes many of the slaves, not all were Muslims or of pagan African beliefs. However, many freedmen did preach,
and many freedmen who were CHRISTIANS helped found and establish this nation.

Again, Osiris you show your one sided view and your lack of historical knowledge, maybe if you read beyond the black power pro islam books you read you will realize that.

As for anyone religion being a joke, no MUSLIM has a right to talk,
we are not strapping bombs to ourselves and blowing up London now are we? Yeah let's look at history now

1. 9.11.01 19 Muslims kill 3,000 Americans

2. 7-7-05, Muslim Terrorists Kill Folks in London

3. TODAY muslim terrorist bomb London again

4. Muslim hate mongers blame England for attacks on 7-7-05

Yep, how many women were beaten today in Muslim Countries?
How many Christians were killed? How many homosexuals were beheaded?

Say what you want to say Muslim dude, I have never spoken evil of anyone's belief on here, and I put up with your crap and lies on 2 boards,
but not today, it's time you get real with yourself. There are folks on the radio calling to bomb Mecca and Medina to turn them to rubble and to kick you guys out of America. Now do I endorse that? NOPE. . Do I endorse calling your GOD names and printing false articles about Islam? NOPE.
DID I EVER CALL ISLAM A JOKE? NEVER!!!!

I also, notice you did not print any scripture either? ABOMINATION=SIN
we know that, homosexuality is a sin and no matter how you guys twist it with you touch feely answers and your personal insults it is. But you know what, I don't have to be cocky, I don't have to call Islam a joke, or any other belief . . . one day it will be made manifest to all, whether what I said was garbage, or gospel . . . and we will see who's joking then.

[Bane]

Well, Im definitely am not going to quote the Bible its a flawed document period.

Nor will I get into its poor translation and piecing together.

But I do have a question Zorcrow, who taught you black history and the history of the Church?

Because you pretty much fibbed a lot concerning it. First of all, the Slaves were Muslims and Animists, they were TAUGHT Christianity and the most often used conversionist verses was the sermon on the mount "Slaves OBEY your masters" ring a bell? Christianity is a slave making doctrine always has, because it doesnt rely on logic, but blind faith, the funny thing is that Jesus(PBUH) was quoted as saying if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch(hell), yet most Christians are spiritually blind.

The slaves were not allowed to read at all, especially the bible, and when they were allowed to read the bible, black preachers were trained as to what parts could be taught.

But Im not going to go too deep on religious history, something Im a student of BTW,

The topic demands an answer, and even in the most vague of circumstances, homosexuality is commonly viewed as a sin in all of the Abrahamic or Semetic religions.

However, Especially in Islam and even in Christianity and Judaism, NO SIN is greater than anyother, and what really pisses me off about the Christian Right, is this Moral Hypocrisy thats going on in America.

Christians are so busy condeming Gays, Harry Potter, Muslims, etc. and everything else they fear, yet those in Power who claim to be Christians and are supported by the masses of Christians produce policies that kill, starve, and steal from hundreds DAILY. While the Churches are getting bigger and bigger, people in America are starving and suffering. While they are busy singing and dancing on Sunday, children in the street have no joy on Monday.

Im sick and tired of the hypcrisy, instead of worrying about whos sleeping with who, try to be real Christians for a change, and turn swords into plowshares, hate into love, heal the sick and the broken hearted, what ever happened to greater things than this you shall do?

This is why Christianity is on a death march and loosing members daily and no one is converting anymore, because Christians have lost their way, and their religion has become a joke.

Instead of worrying and speaking out on REAL issues, they have become more involved with mega churches, books, cars, choirs, and pointing the finger at those they don't like. Swatting at a gnat, but will let a camel pass through the head of a needle!

OK. First of all, the Sermon on the Mount never said anything along those lines.

In the United States, which is the part of history we're talking about, I believe, there were few to no Muslims. Animists perhaps, because some African Americans had some sort of tribal religion.You're thinking of the African slave trade before Western intervention, but even then slavery was scarce.

Blind faith is faith. That's what faith is period. If you're part of a religion, you have blind faith. Faith is believing in a higher power regardless of what happens. Christianity is not the only faith, so is Islam. Infact, logic is the bane of all religion; it questions and challenges.

No sin is greater than the other, true. But the difference between all the other sins and homosexuality is that homosexuality is a lifestyle, so you're basically condemning someone's life. So basically, you'd have to repent every moment of your life, which yes, is ridiculous. But Christians aren't being hypocrtical.

Slaves weren't allowed to read because reading meant access to knowledge, and knowledge means power. It's true that certain slavemasters tried to use the Bible to convince slaves that they were within that element. The Bible itself, however, doesn't support that. You cannot blame a faith for what people choose to do with it.

No policies are Christian. That would be against the creed of Church vs State. Some concepts are inherently conservative, but conservative does not = Christian necessarily. And further, there ARE no policies that do what you suggest.

You're asking all Christians to be saints and, sorry, but no group, affilliated by Christianity or otherwise, is accomplishing what you say should be accomplished. However, Christianity has supported an immense number of missionary organizations and the like. It's doing it's part. Not to the ideal level, but that's an improbable expectation right now.

We are in times where people are encouraged to accept each other and live life according to how they see fit. So yes, Christianity is in crisis, but so is every other religion. It is still the largest religion in the world, furthermore.

You just criticized them for speaking out on issues, and now you're saying they're not doing enough of it? Also, "books and such" are what propel progression. Change does not come easily. The world won't suddenly change because we decide to do so. It takes TIME.

[Osiris]

I see there is a comprehension problem here.....

1st of all Zorcrow, lets not start counting which religious ideology is responsible for more death....I think we would know Islam barely comes in a close second or third to Christianity.

And for your analysis of what I spoke of history, maybe you should re-read what I typed, before you go jumping the gun. I said most slaves were either Muslims or Animists, notice I didnt use exact figures, because their not precise, however, most historians categorize the slaves as either or, point is Christianity was taught to the slaves, they didnt come here Christians.

As far as free slaves that did preach, if you studied the history of the church you would know that those black preachers were taught what they should preach, some of this still occurs today in seminary, preachers are taught what doctrines to teach, it was more constrained several hundred years ago...

Now as far as Christians founding this nation, that is not a debate, if you ever listened to anything I ever wrote, you would know that I believe Christians and the religion of Christianity are two different things.

For the record, do you really believe the founding fathers were Christians and Islam was not known in America? You might want to read up of Shriners......

Now as far as religion being a joke, I believe my quote was Christianity is BECOMING a joke because....and I listed my reasons why I felt that way, I also made it a point to say that it was a BEAUTIFUL religion, I think once again you need to read what I wrote....

Like I said, you can play the numbers game all you want, but in this predominately "Christian" nation, you and I both know America has no room to speak about any country when it comes to morals and decency.....

As far as Mecca and Medina being bombed, some crazy, radical, extremist Christians really wish that.....Its a joke, that day would mark the end of Christianity as we know it, and Americas economy BTW, lets not forget who relys on who for wealth, have we forgotten how much of the economy Saudi Arabia owns? It will never happen, wishful thinking though....Muslims could never think of the same for Christians though, because is there really anything viewed sacred in Christianity anymore?

In summary Zorcrow, maybe you should read my responses, before you get into a religious, zealous, moment and fly off the handle....you will see I never said anything you accused me of saying....

BTW, I read a lot more than pro-Islam pro-black literature, that was a foolish statement. I have many years of OT and NT formal education, Religion education, Church history education, etc. and its also a personal hobby. So my views are not biased, in fact alot comes from the Catholic libraries and many Christian theologians, I mostly quote Christian and sectarian scholars so that Im not biased. I don't study Islam from the inside alone, but also from the outside. What good is a biased education?

Now Rich,

I don't know you, so Im going to be a little forgiving in your case...

First off all, Jesus(PBUH) did in fact say "slaves obey your masters", regardless of what exegesis or context you want to use to justify, the point I was making was that the Slave owners used that verse and others to justify and use the Bible as a means to control the slaves. There were many other methods as well, this was one of them. The Bible as another poster brought up has for centuries been used to sanctify evil deeds. I would bring up the crusades....but that would be obvious coming from a Muslim huh?

As far a the Muslim population in America, read the above, no one knows for sure, but Muslims were in America since America began, no to mention as I already have, our founding fathers knew Islam and the Quran very well, but it was no taught and there is a reason for that, but you guys do your own research, because if you see for yourself, I wont be called a liar.

I never once said there was a such thing as a Christian policy, I said there a Christians who make policies that are detremental to people in America and the world, there is a difference...

I never asked all Christians to be "saints", don't put words in my mouth, first of all thats not possible, and secondly in truth I said that Christians should stop being hypocrits, and there is a difference.

What do I mean by Christians? I mean those who use their religion as a pretext to hate, segregate, and make injustice in the land. Those who argue petty things like whos sleeping with whom, rather than worrying about whos eating and whos not. Where is the balance?

Im very much aware of the work that some Christians do, I support Christian charities, and give to churches that work. May God bless and continue to guide them.

However, what do you hear most about from those Christians who have power and influence to speak? And no its not charity, but divisive propraganda that is not benefiting to anyone, except themselves.

I would have loved to see those same Christians that are anti-gay and anti-abortion, Harry Potter, etc, up in arms about the WAR that we were lied about. But then again, since its a bunch of Muslims, who cares right?

My biggest beef is hypcrisy within the religion, the same ones calling out gays, are the same ones going trick or treating, telling stories about Santa and burning the YULE log, and having Easter Egg hunts.....Pagans in Christian clothing.....

[ZorCrow]

Osiris for you . .

One of the most frequent tactics employed to discredit America's Founding Fathers is to say that the Founding Fathers were all pro-slavery racists and hypocrites. Therefore, why should we care what their views were on any subject? African-American professor Walter Williams wisely explained the use of this tactic in these words:



"Politicians, news media, college professors and leftists of other stripes are selling us lies and propaganda. To lay the groundwork for their increasingly successful attack on our Constitution, they must demean and criticize its authors. As Senator Joe Biden demonstrated during the Clarence Thomas hearings, the framers' ideas about natural law must be trivialized or they must be seen as racists."

These people paint (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/paint.html) a false picture of the Founding Fathers and the issue of slavery. The historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by the Founders; slavery was introduced in America nearly two centuries before the Founders. In fact, Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay noted that there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery prior to the Founding Fathers. The Revolution was a turning point in the national attitude against slavery - and it was the Founders who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British.

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.

Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil--and their support went beyond words.

For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:





"I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and... I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity... May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abhor.html) of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/burden.html), to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke."

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more. In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.

It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:



"I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]."
-George Washington
Notice a few additional examples of the Founder's strong antislavery sentiments:

"[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known... [N]ever in my life did I own a slave."
-John Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. President. The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1854), vol IX pp. 92-93. In a letter to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801.

"[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil."
-Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, pg. 231.

"As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they ...[c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery]."
-John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution and Governor of Pennsylvania. Charles J. Stille, The Life and Times of John Dickinson (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1898) p. 324.

"That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent as well as unjust and perhaps impious part."
-John Jay, President of Continental Congress, Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Governor of New York. Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, pp. 168-169. In a letter to Dr. Richard Price on Sep. 27, 1785.

"Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts... by agreeing to this duty."
-Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Memoir of the Life of Richard Henry Lee and His Correspondence With the Most Distinguised Men in America and Europe (Philadelphia: H.C. Carey and I. Lea, 1825), Vol. I, pp. 17-19. The first speech of Richard Henry Lee in the House of Burgesses.

"t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master."
-Luther Martin, Constitutional Convention Delegate. James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. III, pg. 211.

"Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity... It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men."
-Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. [i]Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates From the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States, Assembled at Philadelphia, on the First Day of January, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety-Four... (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24. "To the Citizens of the United States."

"Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law... The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all."
-James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.

"It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others...and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force."
-John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), p. 81, "Lectures on Moral Philosophy."

Numerous similar quotes could be cited. Yet despite the progress made by many of the Founders to end the institution of slavery and to recognize in practice that "all men are created equal," it is currently charged that in the Constitution, the Founders considered a black to be only three-fifths of a person. This charge is yet another misportrayal of the truth.

The records of the Constitutional Convention make clear that the three-fifths clause was actually an antislavery provision. As Professor Walter Williams explains:



"It was slavery's opponents who succeeded in restricting the political power of the South by allowing them to count only three-fifths of their slave population in determining the number of congressional representatives. The three-fifths of a vote provision applied only to slaves, not to free blacks in either the North or South." (emphasis added)
The three-fifths clause was not a measurement of human worth; it was an attempt to reduce the number of pro-slavery proponents in Congress. By including only three-fifths of the total numbers of slaves into the congressional calculations, Southern states were actually being denied additional pro-slavery representatives in Congress. While there were a few Founding Fathers who were pro-slavery, the truth is that it was the Founders who were responsible for planting and nurturing the first seeds for the recognition of black equality and for the eventual end of slavery. This is a fact made clear by Richard Allen.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/paflag.jpg Allen had been a slave in Pennsylvania, but was freed after he converted his master to Christianity. A close friend of Benjamin Rush and several other Founding Fathers, he went on to become the founder of the A.M.E. Church in America. In an early address entitled "To the People of Color," Allen reminded them:



"Many of the white people [who] have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal."
-Richard Allen
Recommended Reading http://www.christiananswers.net/catalog/bk-oneblood-small.jpg (http://www.christiananswers.net/catalog/bk-oneblood.html)ONE BLOOD: (http://www.christiananswers.net/catalog/bk-oneblood.html)
The Biblical Answer to Racism
authors Ken Ham, Carl Wieland, and Don Batten

If this view of the Founding Fathers and many of their names were new to you, there is a solution to help acquaint you with many of them. Wallbuilders has reprinted an 1848 book entitled Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence. This work, long used as a school text, gives a brief and informative biographical sketch of each of the fifty-six men who signed the Declaration of Independence.

[Pam Ravenscroft]

This is really starting to annoying me. I'm going to be blunt, and I frankly don't care if I offend anyone because this entire thread is turning into a religious argument. I think people who find homosexuality "unholy" or against the code of the Bible are close minded and latch themselves onto the Bible to justify everything they can't. WHO CARES if a man loves a man. WHO CARES if a woman wants to have a relationship with a woman. It's their CHOICE. Oh there's a novel idea....choice! Being able to choose who you want to be, who you love, where the hell you want to go see 'Hustle and Flow'. Above all, whether it's writen in the Bible or not, life is all about choices. The freedom to live you life the way you choose to. Damn, give all this religious babble a freakin break already.

Yes I understand this thread's title is "Homosexuality: Are We Sinning?". I understand that. But I can change the subject, because i'm a damn moderator, and I want to.:p :D It just frustrates me to no end reading al lthe negative remarks, and listening to them time and time again by close minded people, saying "Gays are sinners." You know what, as far as i'm concerned, being GAY isn't the most horrible "sin" a person can commit. Murder, Adultery, Stealing....loving someone of the same sex doesn't exactly messure up to those "sins". But whatever, i'm sure i'm going to get an ear full by someone sometime soon. :rolleyes:

[Osiris]

Zorcrow, why did you dedicate that post to me? Can't you read? I know I never once alleged All of anything in any post. I love and studied US history 4.0 btw, I just had this debate at work like 2 weeks ago, saying almost the exact thing you posted.

I never said that slavery was this widespread disease created by the founding fathers, there was much politics involved and some just voted to preserve unity. To say that every white person in America was for slavery is a lie.

Once again, I think you need to not only read, but comprehend.

[Bane]

Now Rich,

I don't know you, so Im going to be a little forgiving in your case...

First off all, Jesus(PBUH) did in fact say "slaves obey your masters", regardless of what exegesis or context you want to use to justify, the point I was making was that the Slave owners used that verse and others to justify and use the Bible as a means to control the slaves. There were many other methods as well, this was one of them. The Bible as another poster brought up has for centuries been used to sanctify evil deeds. I would bring up the crusades....but that would be obvious coming from a Muslim huh?

As far a the Muslim population in America, read the above, no one knows for sure, but Muslims were in America since America began, no to mention as I already have, our founding fathers knew Islam and the Quran very well, but it was no taught and there is a reason for that, but you guys do your own research, because if you see for yourself, I wont be called a liar.

I never once said there was a such thing as a Christian policy, I said there a Christians who make policies that are detremental to people in America and the world, there is a difference...

I never asked all Christians to be "saints", don't put words in my mouth, first of all thats not possible, and secondly in truth I said that Christians should stop being hypocrits, and there is a difference.

What do I mean by Christians? I mean those who use their religion as a pretext to hate, segregate, and make injustice in the land. Those who argue petty things like whos sleeping with whom, rather than worrying about whos eating and whos not. Where is the balance?

Im very much aware of the work that some Christians do, I support Christian charities, and give to churches that work. May God bless and continue to guide them.

However, what do you hear most about from those Christians who have power and influence to speak? And no its not charity, but divisive propraganda that is not benefiting to anyone, except themselves.

I would have loved to see those same Christians that are anti-gay and anti-abortion, Harry Potter, etc, up in arms about the WAR that we were lied about. But then again, since its a bunch of Muslims, who cares right?

My biggest beef is hypcrisy within the religion, the same ones calling out gays, are the same ones going trick or treating, telling stories about Santa and burning the YULE log, and having Easter Egg hunts.....Pagans in Christian clothing.....

No. Perhaps you're referring to Caesar's rule, which as close to what you're trying to suggest. People had begun trying to use the Bible as a means of justfying the usurption of rulers such as Caesar. Jesus told them that the Bible did not give that excuse.

You're not listening to what I'm saying. The Bible HAS been used for evil deeds. That does not make it inherently evil. You can use anything, provided you twist it enough, to support your agenda.. i.e. Muslim extremists who have found a way to twist the Quran's message into that of violence and genocide. The Bible ITSELF has NO teachings that justify violence.

Muslims were not in America since it began. Muslim empires such as the Ottoman FELL because they were arrogant and dismissed the Western empires as ignorant. At one point, the Muslims were the most intellectual thinkers in the world, but their arrogance ensured their downfall. There would be NO REASON for Muslims to visit early America. The most significant arrival of Islam was through Malcom X, and that was well after the late 18th, early 19th century.

No, there isn't a difference. When you begin to use adjectives such as 'Christian' for rulers and then say their policies are hateful and prejudiced, you are insinuating those polices are inherently Christian. But they are not. If you're trying to say some presidents have been a detriment unto American society, do so. But the role of religion plays no part in how government works.

You are holding Christians to saintly standards when you suddenly want them to drop all of their preconceived notions and ways of living to help those on the street. Refer to your comments about "large churches, cars, etc." above for clarification on what you yourself said.

You are making an overt generalization when you label Christians as such. Let me tell you, hatred does NOT discriminate. Every religion has its share of haters. Bringing Christians to the pretext is asinine.

Oh really? And I suppose what the Pope has been doing these past years is apathetic in nature? The only Christians who are using propaganda and such to their own advantage are politicians, and let me tell you, the vast majority of politicians do not abide by Christian values. Further, your characterizations are, again, non-discriminative. EVERY politician uses propaganda.

Talking about the Iraq war is opening up a can of worms, but to address your specific comments, we weren't lied to. Both our and foreign intelligence had reason to believe there were weapons of mass destruction. Further, don't try and spin the whole "Muslim hatred" factor into this argument. People do not hate Muslims, people hate extremists and fundamentalists who perpetuate violence. Kindly do away with your prejudices about Americans and non-Muslims in general -- not everyone is out to get you.

I don't really know what you're getting at. Because there's suffering in the world, we all suddenly have to drop everything we're doing, forget festivities and having fun, and devote all of our resources to helping the poor? That's not going to work. Contemporary American society is overworked and overstressed -- if anything, we NEED holidays to say sane. Further, being a homosexual is a sin in the Christian faith.. trick-or-treating is not. Some people do have problems with anything remotely associate of witchcraft, but the Christian population at large is not.

[ZorCrow]

This is really starting to annoying me. I'm going to be blunt, and I frankly don't care if I offend anyone because this entire thread is turning into a religious argument. I think people who find homosexuality "unholy" or against the code of the Bible are close minded and latch themselves onto the Bible to justify everything they can't. WHO CARES if a man loves a man. WHO CARES if a woman wants to have a relationship with a woman. It's their CHOICE. Oh there's a novel idea....choice! Being able to choose who you want to be, who you love, where the hell you want to go see 'Hustle and Flow'. Above all, whether it's writen in the Bible or not, life is all about choices. The freedom to live you life the way you choose to. Damn, give all this religious babble a freakin break already.

Yes I understand this thread's title is "Homosexuality: Are We Sinning?". I understand that. But I can change the subject, because i'm a damn moderator, and I want to.:p :D It just frustrates me to no end reading al lthe negative remarks, and listening to them time and time again by close minded people, saying "Gays are sinners." You know what, as far as i'm concerned, being GAY isn't the most horrible "sin" a person can commit. Murder, Adultery, Stealing....loving someone of the same sex doesn't exactly messure up to those "sins". But whatever, i'm sure i'm going to get an ear full by someone sometime soon. :rolleyes:

You know what, what is said is said, let's get away from the FAITH argument, what is stated is stated and we are going to believe what we are going to believe only GOD will open eyes and change hearts.

NOW my own personal view, I do care what two men do, I do care about my society, we have something called LAWS. I am glad that BUSH is going to put someone on the Supreme Court and maybe another someone who can overturn the error that was Roe v. Wade and also maybe one day clearly define marriage as one man and one woman.

I think we need to have limits in our society, we have too much reckless behavior and all kinds of consequences. I do care, and I think and I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong, I personally believe it's a choice, I personally believe that gay marriage should be outlawed. MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF AS AN INDIVIDUAL . . is that homosexuality should not be promoted in our society, we need to get gay shows and the gay agenda out of schools, churches, the work place, courts and mass media, we need to have more clear defined paths of right and wrong in general.

Now that's my personal belief, mine own view.

[Jacob Black]

I am starting to get annoyed with this topic too because Zorcrow I just really can't understand how you can approve of opression in once sense but not the other. It makes no sense.. Opression and Discrimination are the same no matter what they are applied to. Just as you wouldn't want to lose out on a job because you are christian I wouldn't want to lose out on a job if I was gay... Opression is Opression is Opression... The first two forms were depicted as Caucasian, they were white, so how can you explain your existence? People could use the bible to say that you yourself as a black man are unnatural, so I am just trying to get you to see how interpretations of the Bible can be misconstrued and used against people who simply wanted to be treated as human.. The bible says some strange things that don't make a lot of sense..

And in my OWN personal opinion is that it should NOT be used in any kind of debate or political stand as the Bible has not been proven to be the Word of God and it has not been proven to be the TRUE way to Heaven or WHATEVER you believe in. We are a cultural melding pot and it is time we started acting like one instead of all this in fighting..

What I am trying to say I guess is I don't understand how some people can see YOUR very existence as an Abomination of God, and having to gone through things that I will never understand, and then do the same thing to another "minority" because you don't agree with? I just don't understand how a black person could not support ALL kinds of different people. I know that if I was black I would be advocating Human Rights all the time, I would stand up proud and I am not saying you don't do that, but I am saying that Human Rights applies to everyone, not just those whom you believe are following the right path to God..

Sin is a very grey area, and I don't think it is fair for you to be against people who use the bible to defame you but pro people who use the bible to advocate against Gay People or Women or anybody else. That is the only point I am making.

[Bane]

You know what, what is said is said, let's get away from the FAITH argument, what is stated is stated and we are going to believe what we are going to believe only GOD will open eyes and change hearts.

NOW my own personal view, I do care what two men do, I do care about my society, we have something called LAWS. I am glad that BUSH is going to put someone on the Supreme Court and maybe another someone who can overturn the error that was Roe v. Wade and also maybe one day clearly define marriage as one man and one woman.

I think we need to have limits in our society, we have too much reckless behavior and all kinds of consequences. I do care, and I think and I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong, I personally believe it's a choice, I personally believe that gay marriage should be outlawed. MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF AS AN INDIVIDUAL . . is that homosexuality should not be promoted in our society, we need to get gay shows and the gay agenda out of schools, churches, the work place, courts and mass media, we need to have more clear defined paths of right and wrong in general.

Now that's my personal belief, mine own view.

The only legitimate reason you'll ever give about homosexuality's inherent wrongness (for lack of a better word) is that it's "unnatural", and as I explained above, it's a fallacious argument.

You'll never find evidence to suggest homosexuality is a choice. Infact, I'll tell you right now that all current research is suggesting it's anything BUT.

Gay marriages will not be outlawed. People will soon not care about them. And then, people will accept them. No matter what Christianity says, what the conservatives preach, the world is becoming liberal, and homosexuals will have their rights recognized. I guarantee this. My findings are based upon historical precedence, and a growing pattern within America. The rest of the world has already given gay marriage and homosexualityit's proper dues -- it's only a matter of time.

To be frank, Zorcrow, you insult me. I don't pretend to understand what you're proposing. What angers me about your propositions is that you somehow seem to think religion belongs in the government. IT DOESN'T. Our Founding Fathers clearly established boundaries, because EVERY government EVER influenced directly by religion has FALLEN. You think it's some kind of coincidence that when Queen Elizabeth allowed religious tolerance and ruled with her conscience rather than a Bible that she had one of the most successful reigns of her time, and pulled the government out of a previous slump held by Queen Mary, who passionately envoked Christianity (or Catholicism, specifically)? I repeat: every single empire who has ever ruled based on a religion has fallen.

You can cling to the values of your faith book. Fine. Whatever. It's not my problem what you believe, nor do I care to argue what you believe. But when you start imposing those values on others and judge those who you have no place to judge, I have a problem.

[Osiris]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

[Pam Ravenscroft]

I'm going to stop reading this thread because this is really starting to piss me off. I can't believe there are so many close minded people out there as to THINK people should completely DICTATE the way others choose to live their lives. It's the United States of America for God sakes. People move here, live here, to live the American dream. To live without limitations, without being judged or hated. Look at the fucking Constitution. If you want BUSH to dictate how others should live, then maybe we should reevaluate our current status as a nation and change it from a democracy to a dictatorship.

But then again, that's MY opinion.

[ZorCrow]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

Slavery in the Middle East

For Islamic views on slavery see Islam and slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery).

The Arab world traded in slaves like many other cultures of the time. The Moors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) starting in the 8th century raided mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean) coastal areas and would carry away sometimes whole villages to the Moorish slave markets on the Barbary Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast). The slave trade from East Africa to Arabia was dominated by Arab and African traders in the coastal cities of Zanzibar, Dar Es Salaam and Mombasa.

Many Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turk) and Circassian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassia) males from northern Black Sea regions who were enlisted into the army. These soldier classes were named Mamelukes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mameluke) and Janissaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries) and were mainly responsible for the expulsion of the Crusaders from Palestine.


Richard Allen and African-American Identity

A Black Ex-Slave in Early America's White Society Preserves His Cultural Identity by Creating Separate Institutions

by James Henretta

http://earlyamerica.com/review/images/line1.jpg Richard Allen was a success. Born into slavery in Philadelphia in 1760, he died in 1831 not only free but influential, a founder of the African Methodist Episcopal Church and its first bishop. Allen's rise has much of the classic American success story about it, but he bears a larger significance: Allen, as one of the first African-Americans to be emancipated during the Revolutionary Era, had to forge an identity for his people as well as for himself. http://cdn.fastclick.net/fastclick.net/cid29911/media65936.gif (http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?cid=29911&mid=65936&sid=7651&m=6&c=0) http://media.fastclick.net/w/get.media?sid=7651&m=6&tp=8&d=s&c=1 (http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?sid=7651&m=6&c=1) Sold as a child along with his family to a farmer in Delaware, Allen began his ascent in 1777, when he was converted to Methodism by Freeborn Garretson, an itinerant preacher. Garretson also converted Allen's master and convinced him that on Judgment Day slaveholders would be "weighted in the balance, and . . . found wanting." Allowed by his repentant owner to buy his freedom, Allen earned a living sawing cordwood and driving a wagon during the Revolutionary War. After the war he furthered the Methodist cause by becoming a "licensed exhorter," preaching to blacks and whites from New York to South Carolina. His efforts attracted the attention of Methodist leaders, including Francis Asbury, the first American bishop of the Methodist Church. In 1786 Allen was appointed as an assistant minister in Philadelphia, serving the racially mixed congregation of St. Georgeþs Methodist Church. The following year he and Absalom Jones, another black preacher, joined other ex-slaves and Quaker philanthropists to form the Free African Society, a quasi-religious benevolent organization that offered fellowship and mutual aid to "free Africans and their descendants." Allen remained a staunch Methodist throughout his life. In 1789, when the Free African Society adopted various Quaker practices, such as having fifteen minutes of silence at its meetings, Allen led a withdrawal of those who preferred more enthusiastic Methodist practices. In 1794 he rejected an offer to become the pastor of the church the Free African Society had built, St. Thomas's African Episcopal Church, a position ultimately accepted by Absalom Jones. A large majority of the society had chosen to affiliate with the white Episcopal (formerly Anglican) Church because much of the city's black community had been Anglican since the 1740s. "I informed them that I could not be anything else but a Methodist, as I was born and awakened under them," Allen recalled. To reconcile his faith and his African-American identity, Allen decided to form his own congregation. He gathered a group of ten black Methodists and took over a blacksmith's shop in the increasingly black southern section of the city, converting it to the Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church. Although the Bethel Church opened in a ceremony led by Bishop Francis Asbury in July 1794, its tiny congregation worshiped "separate from our white brethren." Allen's decision to found a black congregation was partly a response to white racism. Although var width='300'; var height='600'; var swf_path='http://cdn.fastclick.net/fastclick.net/cid16040/s-newgen_november_300X600.swf'; var img_path='http://cdn.fastclick.net/fastclick.net/cid16040/s-newgen_november_300X600.gif'; var click_url='http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?cid=16040&mid=50887&sid=7651&m=8&c=0'; var click_url2='http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?cid=16040&mid=50887&sid=7651&m=8&c=0'; var bcolor='#ffffff'; http://media.fastclick.net/w/get.media?sid=7651&m=8&tp=10&d=s&c=1 (http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?sid=7651&m=8&c=1) most white Methodists in the 1790s favored emancipation, they did not treat free blacks as equals. They refused to allow African-Americans to be buried in the congregationþs cemetery and, in a famous incident in 1792, segregated them into a newly built gallery of St. George's Methodist Church. But Allen's action also reflected a desire among African- Americans to control their religious lives, to have the power, for example, "to call any brother that appears to us adequate to the task to preach or exhort as a local preacher, without the interference of the Conference." By 1795 the congregation of Allen's Bethel Church numbered 121; a decade later it had grown to 457, and by 1813 it had reached 1,272. Bethel's rapid expansion reflected the growth of Philadelphia's black population, which numbered nearly 10,000 by 1810, and the appeal of Methodist practices. Newly freed blacks welcomed "love feasts," which allowed the full expression of emotions repressed under slavery. They were attracted as well by the church's strict system of discipline--its communal sanctions against drinking, gambling, and infidelity--which helped them bring order to their lives. Allen's preaching also played a role; the excellence of his sermons was recognized in 1799, when Bishop Asbury ordained him as the first black deacon of the Methodist Church. But over the years Allen and other blacks grew dissatisfied with Methodism, as white ministers retreated from their antislavery principles and attempted to curb the autonomy of African-American congregations. In 1807 the Bethel Church added an "African Supplement" to its articles of incorporation; in 1816 it won legal recognition as an independent church. In the same year Allen and representatives from four other black Methodist congregations (in Baltimore; Wilmington, Delaware; Salem, New Jersey; and Attleboro, Pennsylvania) met at the Bethel Church to organize a new denomination, the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Allen was chosen as the first bishop of the church, the first fully independent black denomination in America. He had succeeded in charting a separate religious identity for African-Americans. Allen also recognized the importance of education to the future of the African-American community. In 1795 he opened a day school for sixty children and in 1804 founded the "Society of Free People of Colour for Promoting the Instruction and School Education of Children of African Descent." By 1811 there were no fewer than 11 black schools in the city. But where did Allen think "free people of colour" should look for their future? This question had arisen in Philadelphia in 1787, when William Thornton had promoted a plan devised by antislavery groups in London to settle free American blacks (and emancipated slaves from the West Indies) in Sierra Leone, an independent state they had founded on the west coast of Africa. Many blacks in Boston and Newport had endorsed this scheme, but the members of Philadelphiaþs Free African Society had rejected it. They preferred to seek advancement in America, but on their own cultural terms. The process took place on two levels: As a social group, Philadelphia blacks embraced their ancestral heritage by forming "African" churches and benevolent societies. As individuals, however, they affirmed their American identity by taking English names (although virtually never those of their former owners). This dual strategy brought pride but not significant gains in wealth and status. Nonetheless, Philadelphiaþs African-Americans rejected colonization when the issue was raised again just after 1800: only four people signed up for emigration to Sierra Leone. Instead, the city's black community petitioned the state and national governments to end slavery and the slave trade and repeal the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793, which allowed slaveowners to seize blacks without a warrant. As if to underline the importance of these political initiatives, Allen was temporarily seized in 1806 as a fugitive slave, showing that even the most prominent northern blacks could not be sure of their freedom. This experience may account for Allen's initial support for the American Colonization Society, a predominantly white organization founded in 1817 to promote the settlement of free blacks in Africa. This scheme was immediately condemned at a mass meeting of nearly 3,000 Philadelphia blacks, who set forth a different vision of the African-American future: "Whereas our ancestors (not of choice) were the first successful cultivators of the wilds of America, we their descendants feel ourselves entitled to participate in the blessings of her luxuriant soil." Philadelphia's black community, including Allen, was more favorably inclined toward the Haitian Emigration Society, which was founded in 1824 to help African-Americans settle in that island republic. But when that venture failed, Allen forcefully urged blacks to remain in the United States. In November 1827 he made a compelling argument in Freedomþs Journal, the nationþs first black newspaper: "This land which we have watered with our tears and our blood is now our mother country." Born a slave of African ancestry, Allen learned to live as a free man in white America, rejecting emigration and preserving his cultural identity by creating separate African-American institutions. But it meant that he cast his lot, and that of his descendants, with a society pervaded by racism. It was a brave decision, both characteristic of the man who made it and indicative of the limited choices available to those freed from the bonds of slavery.

Lemuel Haynes was probably the first African American ordained by a mainstream Protestant Church in the United States.

Haynes, the abandoned child of an African father and "a white woman of respectable ancestry," was born in 1753 at West Hartford, Connecticut. Five months later, he was bound to service until the age of 21 to David Rose of Middle Granville, Massachusetts.

With only a rudimentary formal education, Haynes developed a passion for books, especially the Bible and books on theology. As an adolescent, he frequently conducted services at the town parish, sometimes reading sermons of his own.

When his indenture ended in 1774, Haynes enlisted as a "Minuteman" in the local militia. While serving in the militia, he wrote a lengthy ballad-sermon about the April, 1775 Battle of Lexington. In the title of the poem, he refers to himself as "Lemuel a young Mollato who obtained what little knowledge he possesses, by his own Application to Letters." Although the poem emphasized the conflict between slavery and freedom, it did not directly address black slavery.

After the war, Haynes turned down the opportunity to study at Dartmouth College, instead choosing to study Latin and Greek with clergymen in Connecticut. In 1780 he was licensed to preach. He accepted a position with a white congregation in Middle Granville and later married a young white schoolteacher, Elizabeth Babbitt. In 1785, Haynes was officially ordained as a Congregational minister.

Haynes held three pastorships after his ordination. The first was with an all-white congregation in Torrington, Connecticut, where he left after two years due to the active prejudice of several members.

His second call to the pulpit, from a mostly white church in Rutland, Vermont that had a few "poor Africans," lasted for 30 years. During that time, Haynes developed an international reputation as a preacher and writer. In 1804, he received an honorary Master of Arts degree from Middlebury College, the first ever bestowed upon an African American. In 1801, he published a tract called "The Nature and Importance of True Republicanism..." which contained his only public statement on the subject of race or slavery.

Haynes was a lifelong admirer of George Washington and an ardent Federalist. In 1818, conflicts with his congregation, ostensibly over politics and style, led to a parting; there was some speculation, however, that the church's displeasure with Haynes stemmed from racism. Haynes himself was known to say that "he lived with the people of Rutland thirty years, and they were so sagacious that at the end of that time they found out that he was a nigger, and so turned him away."

His last appointment was in Manchester, Vermont, where he counseled two men convicted of murder; they narrowly escaped hanging when the alleged "victim" reappeared. Haynes's writings on the seven-year ordeal became a bestseller for a decade.

For the last eleven years of his life, Haynes ministered to a congregation in upstate New York. He died in 1833, at the age of 80.

Nearly 150 years after his death, a manuscript written by Haynes around 1776 was discovered, in which he boldly stated "That an African... has an undeniable right to his Liberty." The treatise went on to condemn slavery as sin, and pointed out the irony of slaveowners fighting for their own liberty while denying it to others.

[Bane]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

Wrong. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament. The New Testament is the "second half" of the Bible compromising the Christian faith.

If there were any, there were very, very few, and they had no significant impact.

..Uh, I don't know what you just said about assumptions and insinuations. Are you saying I'm misinterpreting what you're saying? If so, please, correct me.

I congratulate you on your service. It was a very brave and honorable thing of you. But, unfortunately, that has nothing to do with our argument.

Perhaps there was not.. there was evidence suggesting THERE WAS. And frankly, if you're not taking evidence from your government and other foreign agencies at face value, there's something wrong with you. You do care about anti-Islam sentiments, as you said "who cares anyway about those Muslim guys" or something to the effect.

OK, so I guess since Jesus never mentioned anything about being able to drive, I guess all Christians will have to continue on riding donkeys and camels to keep with the Christian faith and not sin. Just because he didn't mention something, doesn't automatically make it a sin. That's one of your largest misconceptions by far, Osiris.

The origins of Halloween are of witchcraft. Trick-or-treating has nothing to do with the true origins. It's simply going from house to house and getting candy.

Santa Clause is a creation of a similar vein, but this time in celebration of the birth of Christ, or CHRISTmas.

The Easter Bunny is for the celebration of Easter, which is the remembrance of Jesus Christ's death upon the cross, if I'm not mistaken.

But wait. You're probably of the opinion that Harry Potter is un-Christian too, huh? :P

[ZorCrow]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

St. John chapter 8 verses 56-68


Jo 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jo 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jo 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Also, Colassians Chapter 1 verses 15-19

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

[Osiris]

Ive officially been run off the thread. You can only talk to a wall for so long. BTW, Zorcrow, when did I ever say there wasnt Arab slavery? I could have sworn we were talking about America?

[Anchovy]

Ooh Mat, open-minded, articulate AND a good dancer? Mmm-hmmm! ;) Yeah, baby. Gotta love that. Tell me you've got freckles or red hair or tattoo(s) and I'm yours! (God help me if you've got all of the above..not to mention your obviously superior taste in films. Yes, I saw the Boondock Saints listed FIRST in your favorite movies. Go post in my Boondock Saints thread.);)

Anyway, had the unique experience of french-kissing a gay man today. Interesting. Figured this thread might be a place to tell THAT story. He had never 'made out with' or french-kissed a girl. I obliged. It was a little weird. It was actually weirder than making out with my girlfriends in some odd way...hmm, wonder why...Maybe because I knew for absolute certain that he wasn't attracted to me, and I've never had that during a kiss before.

[Pam Ravenscroft]

Alright, this thread if getting way off topic. It's encouraged to express your opinion on this boards, but everyone needs to remember to respect each other's faiths and opinions. Yes people may get heated about a certain topic, and say things in the heat of the moment, but let us all please remember to respect everyone's opinions and respect each other.

I'm closing this thread for a little while so everyone can cool down.

[Mat]

Ooh Mat, open-minded, articulate AND a good dancer? Mmm-hmmm! ;) Yeah, baby. Gotta love that. Tell me you've got freckles or red hair or tattoo(s) and I'm yours! (God help me if you've got all of the above..not to mention your obviously superior taste in films. Yes, I saw the Boondock Saints listed FIRST in your favorite movies. Go post in my Boondock Saints thread.);)

Anyway, had the unique experience of french-kissing a gay man today. Interesting. Figured this thread might be a place to tell THAT story. He had never 'made out with' or french-kissed a girl. I obliged. It was a little weird. It was actually weirder than making out with my girlfriends in some odd way...hmm, wonder why...Maybe because I knew for absolute certain that he wasn't attracted to me, and I've never had that during a kiss before.

*laughs*
Sorry, no red hair, freckles or tattoos (though I want to get the Chinese symbol for Honor/Dignity tattood on my right wrist). I *can* speak with a pretty good irish accent and I love Guinness, though! ;)

French kissing can be difficult when you're doing it with someone you find mutually attractive. Too much tongue, not enough tongue, etc. I can't imagine it being anything short of weird if it's with someone you're not attracted to, much less a gay person you know will never be attracted to you.

[Dapper Dan]

Thanks for the book recommendation ZorCrow... I'll definately check and see if the local B&N has it :nod:

Anyways, here are some things for you:

Galatians 3:28, it says that anyone who has been baptised in the name of Christ is no longer Jew or Gentile, Slave or Freeman, or Man or Woman. The final point is the removal of sexuality....
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I've seen a lot of people do the whole "God struck down Sodom" becuase there was homesexual sex taken place. If you look at Ezekiel 16:48-49 we discover that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but not helping the poor and need when one is rich and prosperous themselves. Yes, the men of Sodom attempted to sexually abuse their visitor's at Lot's house, but to my knowledge gang-rape isn't a major part of gay sex....
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. 49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You can't help who you fall in love with.... does it matter that it happens to be between two people of the same sex? Love is love is it not?
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

The word translated as abomination in Levitcus 18:22 in Ancient Hebrew texts is To'ebah. Going back to what I said about the importance of transulation, this word isn't translated as abomination elsewhere in the Bible, in fact at other points in the Bible, it applies to certain other things. That word applies to pork and to menstruating women among other things. I don't think you wanna tell all the ladies on this board that they are all abominations at a certain time every month...
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Romans 1:26-27 refers to idolatry, if you look in the last line, it says men being punished for their false belief, they were eunuch priests and cult prostitutes that Paul was criticising, not homosexuals, in fact homosexuality in our modern sense of the word was scarcely practised in the Ancient world.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.



================================================== ==
As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.
Actually the reason that most of these holidays exist is because of the Catholic church's endeavor to convert pagan's of the time. It made Christianity all the eaiser to accept if Christianity adopted pagan 'holy days' and then "christianized" them. Of course the easter bunny, santa caluse, etc. are modern fabrications of big business.... there are still several christian undertones to such meaning:nod: I'll go for a big spiel on Halloween later... I have to go take an Industrial/Organizational Psych test now:igitt:

[Bane]

I recently found this link from a mother of a homosexual son: http://www.vermontcivilunion.com/advice/0600.html

It reads:

As the mother of a gay son, I've seen firsthand how cruel and misguided people can be.

Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I've taken enough from you good people.

I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the "homosexual agenda" and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.

My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay.

He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called "fag" incessantly, starting when he was 6.

In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn't bear to continue living any longer, that he didn't want to be gay and that he couldn't face a life with no dignity.

You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that.

No choice
At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.

If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it.

For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will?

If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?

A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I'll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for "true Vermonters."

Principles?
You invoke the memory of the brave people who have fought on the battlefield for this great country, saying that they didn't give their lives so that the "homosexual agenda" could tear down the principles they died defending.

My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart. He shakes his head in sadness at the life his grandson has had to live. He says he fought alongside homosexuals in those battles, that they did their part and bothered no one. One of his best friends in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn't the measure of the man.

You religious folk just can't bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance.

How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage.

You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin.

The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April 12 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and tells us about "those of us who have been blessed with the benefits of a religious upbringing" asks: "What ever happened to the idea of striving . . . to be better human beings than we are?"

Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that?

[Dapper Dan]

Ok, here are a few more things from me....

Homosexuality is not unique in its status as an issue some people use to justify their hatred and/or repression of others. Throughout the history of this country, the world, and the church there have been other issues that were divisive in nature: anti-Sematism, slavery, and female clergy to name a few.

Anti-Sematism:John 7:1 states " After this Jesus went about in Galilee, he would not go about in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him. This passage has been used to "prove" that Jews are evil and plotted the murder of Christ, for which they must be punished. Much of the anti-sematism we have observed in the past and today has been "justified" in the minds of the hate mongors using Biblical passages. The same applies to the topic of homosexuality.

Slavery:As we know, slavery was wide spread in the various stories in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. Many members of the US Congress used Biblical passages in their debates in the 1830s, 40s, and 50s to justify the continued legality of slavery. Today, we would reject such usage of the Bible, because we understand more of God's word. The same applies to the topic of homosexuality.

Women Clergy:Most recently, members of the religious right have used scripture to prevent women from serving in the church. 1 Cor.. 34-35 "As in all churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate as the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." Again, we see the mis-application of Biblical verses to oppress a particular group of people. The same applies to the topic of homosexuality.


"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these."

[Greatness]

Whats sad is that many people who believe that God is against homosexuality dont realise what they are saying in essence with that statement, just adding to another reason why I dont follow the church. To say that Homosexuality is against God is to say that god made a mistake in creation. If God is all knowing than he/she would have known homosexuality would come into exisitance. If God wouldnt want this too occur than God would have made this immpossible to happen. Apparently God didnt care so it was allowed. To say that this is wrong in Gods name is to say that God made a mistake in creation which would suggest that God is not all knowing. People need to face facts, that the bible was written by man who claimed to be under the influence of God. If God would have wanted the knowledge to get to everyone why not make us born with it? I for one dont like the idea of putting humanity through tests like faith or not, if your all knowing than you can see what choice I am gonna make regardless of what I do, so if I choose not to than God knew that already which means I was condemed to Sin and as the Church say Hell before I was even born. That makes no sence, why give people freewill if your going to be doing nothing but placing judgment on them? Its like getting a Dog, and not training it not to pee inside but beating it everytime it does. Homosexuality is part of freewill its those individuals choice. The Bible is unimporatant in the issue as simple logic as I have just explains validates Homosexuality. Face it people care not God or God would have made it impossible.

[eponinethen]

Whats sad is that many people who believe that God is against homosexuality dont realise what they are saying in essence with that statement, just adding to another reason why I dont follow the church.
I agree, this used to annoy me a lot, 'cause I was sort of "coming out" as a christian (long story, my friends aren't religious, no one I know is, and I was for like 6 months, uh) at the same time as I was coming out as gay... Hm, people sort of had a problem with that.. Eventually it ended with me not being a christian anymore.. Ah well..

I don't know what this thread is really about, lol, but I'm probably about 100% gay, and have pretty much always been/known that I was. Well I thought for a while that I might be bi but.. well, I realized pretty quickly that I'm not attracted to any guys at all really.

[MaGiCaLjuliet]

Okay, so a couple of months ago I was walking around campus with my friend who, at the time, I happened to have a little crush on. Completely unknown to me, one of my girl friends had told him that I liked him and this little walk would be one I'd remember for a long time. As we were rounding the third quarter of our lap, he started the topic of one of my other guy friends that he believed to be gay. I laughed and told him that I didn't think so. I always thought of him as a Metrosexual. Then, I decided this was a good question to pose to my walking companion. My words were, "And what is your preference?" He turned to me and said, "Me, Oh, I'm gay." Those words were like lightning in my ears. I swear, I felt my heart stop. I recall the brief falter as I was walking and I quickly tried to recover myself before he noticed. (We've talked about this encounter many times since and believe me, he noticed.)
Despite my obvious disappointment,this was one of the greatest things to ever happen to me. I had always been in favor of the homosexual/bisexual ideals. I do not personally choose it but I have no problem with the people who do.
The funny thing was I had been talking to one of my other friends about how great it would be to have a gay best friend. I guess the way I stumbled upon mine wasn't the greatest of circumstances. But I wouldn't trade the time he and I spend together for all the money in the world. We are literally joined at the hip and my friends tell me all the time that we look like brother and sister~ He's got long hair, so do I and it's relatively the same shade. We have the same body structure and we are always on the lookout for a cute guy here or there. My new dorm faces the athletics field...we're still waiting for the binoculars to come in.

[mrfolson]

Well first of all, I would like you all to know that I'm a straight male, been a straight for 36yrs now, an if I'm blessed to see thursday the 24th, I will be straight for 37yrs. :bday: I don't have a problem with gays and lesbians, I have one brother that is bi-sexual, a few cousins who are gay and lesbians. I love them, yes, but I disagree with how they live their lives. Don't get me wrong now, I have no problem with gays or lesbians, as long as they keep to thier boundaries, basically what I'm saying is, we can hang out but don't try to come on to me, and we will be cooler that a fan("New Jack City").

I'm curious though, to know who truly believe in God, because I truly believe in him, I truly fear him, and I know from reading the bible what he Loves an dislikes. I mean you have to respect Zorcrow's beliefs if thats what he truly believes, and Zorcrow will have to respect everyone else beliefs as well, with an open mind. You don't have to like or agree with a certian person's beliefs, but respect goes both ways. So let me ask everyone this, if you are a bible reader, why would you not believe every word the bibles says. Wasn't the scriptures in the bible written by Great men who was inspired by God all mighty. To me, you either believe every word the bible says or you don't believe it at all.

People say and do things to justify the life style they live. I do it alot, I am no exception. I can say that I have many vises that I wish I could kick, but when I try to justify my bad habits, its still not right in God's eye. I believe Spellbinder wrote that the only sin God do not forgive is blasphemy, thats true, that is scripture, also on the same token Zorcrow wrote numerous scriptures down that comes from the bible. My next question is, do we believe what the bible says or not? I do, all 3million plus words of it. Hope I didn't make anyone mad, if so oh well.

[Osiris]

One thing is for certain, I don't believe every word in the Bible is accurate, with good reason, and apparently neither does the Catholic Church these days...(Posted article not long ago). However, I agree on the point that we need to get to a point where we either believe or we don't. I believe after a careful study of the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) the issue of homosexuality is consistantly regarded as against the will of God. Now it would be wrong for any Jew, Christian, or Muslim to attempt to say otherwise, because that is scripturally inaccurate. However, just because something is against the will of God, that doesnt give us a free pass to shun those whose behavior and or beliefs are contrary to our own. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I also believe lying, adultery, stealing, greed, and vanity are sins of equal weight. So, it makes no sense to alienate a person or a group based on their vices when we have our own, therefore just take that stone and throw it in the mirror.

We need to focus on the things that are uniformally taught in these great 3 Monotheistic traditions and that is the Mercy of an Allmighty God is Supreme and superior than His condemnation. For even in our wickedness, He Alone still grants us grace, mercy, and a way to be redeemed.

Salaam

[Hawksmoor]

I am a majorly unreligious guy...I agree with homosexuality in principle, because I see it as a preference; if it's what you see as your thing, I have no more right to criticise or question than I do if you like a different music genre to me - neither one is my business, after all.