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Jill Monroe
09-20-2009, 10:11 AM
This is a dark topic, but i think as adults we can and SHOULD discuss things that are dark or taboo, thats one of the reasons we HAVE this section of the board.

Since just before i graduated highschool, and on through college and into adult life, I have read extensively on the subject of Charles Manson, "The Family" and the murders of Sharon Tate and her friends, the Labiancas. The murders happened 8 years before I was born but even as a child, whenever i recall hearing the name of Charles Manson it was always synonymous with PURE EVIL, SATAN or INSANITY. There was also a girl in my highschool , she was 2 grades ahead of me and her name was SUSAN ATKINS, the same name of one of the "Family" killers. People used to give her hell and I couldnt understand why at first until i finally asked my mom what the story of Charles Manson and Susan Atkins was. The way my mother told it...even SHE seemed haunted by it and she wasnt personally there for the crime. She said she was 15 @ the time.

In college i wanted to learn more about the facts behind this bizarre and horrible infamous "legend" and having read many books (including "Helter Skelter, written by the prosecuting attourney who tried Manson and the women who were involved in the killings) and watched several interviews, and even allowed myself to see the actual crime scene and coroner photos, and documentaries including the recent docu-drama "Manson" on the history channel (released just after the 40 year mark of the murders) I find that while I have a "better" picture of the crime, and those involved...and even though it happened before i was even born, I'm STILL rather disturbed by it and yet...i have no problem discussing it.


i think it just stems from my inate need for information and knowledge, a trait often associated with air signs (like myself) i also think not enough people understand the depth and severity of the crimes and what it meant for not just those DIRECTLY effected by it, but the country as a whole. Many people who were alive and lucid at that time and many historians have said that August 9, 1969 [the date of the murders] marked the END of the "innocence and fun love" that abounded through the 60's. People at that time actually did not lock their doors at night...but those murders changed everything for everyone across the board. I find it interesting to myself that I, living in a post Waco (David Koresh), Jeffrey Dahmer, Columbine, 9/11 world, STILL find this case to be truly unsettling. It happened once... do you think something like it could happen again?

There are so many other developments that have come from this nightmare, including pop culture references: Marilyn Manson taking part of his stage name from Charles Manson and actually COVERING some of Manson's recordings on his albums; Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails who moved INTO the house that Sharon Tate and her friends were murdered in because he thought it was an interesting part of "american folklore" before being confronted by Sharon's sister Debra and then realizing how repugnant it was and moving out ; perhaps most importantly, Doris Tate [Sharon Tate's mother] helping to revolutionize the concept of "victim impact" and "victims rights" in ways including the now COMMON practice of the families of murder victims giving victim impact statements at trials or being allowed to attend parole hearings.

I just wanted to see what people's thoughts on here were about that wholea awful, dark part of modern american history.

Currently, Susan Atkins has been trying to get compassionate release as she is dying of brain cancer. Debra Tate (carrying on the efforts of her now deceased mother AND deceased older sister) has been there every time pushing for denial. I personally feel like Susan should stay in prison. Her sentence was LIFE in prison (commuted from a death sentence when california's supreme court breifly overturned the death penalty at the time she , manson and the others were first put in prison) her brain cancer should not be a get out of jail free card. Consider Sharon Tate [who was 8 and a half months pregnant], Abigail Folger, James Sebring, Voytek Frykowski, Steve Parent, Leno & Rosemary Labianca....ALL of whom will never get a reprieve or parole thanks to Manson and his "Family". What are your thoughts on that?

captain peroxide
09-20-2009, 02:30 PM
I know nothing on this subject, but it sounds scary.
Evil is beyond description for this person, in fact the devil incarnate is better.

Thats all i have to say on the subject

Rampage
09-20-2009, 02:48 PM
I am disgusted at the depravity of what happened, but I think that in the end it didmore good than harm. I hate that those people died and I am not saying the SHOULD have died...but their deaths had the impact to REALLY bringing forward the idea of victim' rights, it did cement the empathy that people did not seem to feel for those who were murdered precious to this.

Manson was one in a long line of mass murdering crazies, but he was different in that many of the guys previously toiled only with regional fame and/or notoriety. Manson made people think about mass murder and crazy cults of personality like Manson and later Jim Jones. Manson's crimes endure that any such mass death/murders afterward would be covered extensively by the media and that people would noticed in a way they hadn't before.

Some people say that it my have even CONTRIBUTED to the proliferation of mass murder. I disagree. I say there has always been mass murder; now we take note of each case.

Jacob Black
09-20-2009, 04:16 PM
None of these people should ever see the light of day. None of these people have done anything to deserve a reprieve in sentence for any reason. What bothers me about these murders and scares me about our society and just "cults" in general is how these people just mindlessly committed such acts of depravity and anger and rage all in the name of a man they loved.

Susan Atkins is one of the worst! She is the same woman who muttered the words "Woman I have No Mercy for you" to Sharon Tate as she held her down and watched Watson stabbed Sharon and her unborn baby. I mean this woman has been married twice while in prison and what do Sharon Tate and the LaBianca's get? Nothing.

And she views herself as a "political prisoner" :rolleyes:

She showed no remorse in those trials, NONE, she made a JOKE of it and for her to be released would prove to me that there is truly no justice in the world.

Jill Monroe
09-20-2009, 06:56 PM
Captain, i was definately wondering what (if anything) some of our overseas members knew about this awfull story. But you're right...it IS scary to say the least.

I am disgusted at the depravity of what happened, but I think that in the end it didmore good than harm. I hate that those people died and I am not saying the SHOULD have died...but their deaths had the impact to REALLY bringing forward the idea of victim' rights, it did cement the empathy that people did not seem to feel for those who were murdered precious to this.

I get what you're saying. Doris Tate (Sharon's mother) suffered from DEEP depression and withdrawl for about 10 years after her daughter Sharon (and the others') murders. Manson and his "Family" were gaining this CULT status in prison and when Leslie Van Houten announced that she'd collected 300 signatures of people who were in favor for her parole, that was what ignited the spark in Doris that caused her to rise up from the ashes of her own personal defeat. we can ALL thank Doris for what she did to bring VICTIM'S RIGHTS to the forefront of society. Before her? the families of victims were NOT allowed to attend parole h earings and actively petition/work against the release of violent offenders/murderers. Before her? there was NO such thing as "victim impact statements" at trials. She received countless awards and recognition for helping to change the laws not only in california where this happened but around the country. She was even recognized and awarded by President H.W. Bush in 1991 shortly before her death from cancer. She, along with her daughter Debra (who is the last of their line :( ) wanted to see Sharon Tate go from being one of the most "Famous victims" in american history to being a "point of light" and i think what they've done has really helped that.

Manson was one in a long line of mass murdering crazies, but he was different in that many of the guys previously toiled only with regional fame and/or notoriety. Manson made people think about mass murder and crazy cults of personality like Manson and later Jim Jones. Manson's crimes endure that any such mass death/murders afterward would be covered extensively by the media and that people would noticed in a way they hadn't before.

It seems that what happened at the hands of Manson and his family was very significant and traumatic for all of us because a) it showed us that we're not safe even in our homes. [ again, at that time, as my own mom recalled... people would OFTEN leave their doors unlocked at home for example] b) even if you were rich and lived in a secluded area of a rich neighborhood, you were not safe. [ Sharon Tate was an actress and married to Roman Polanski; Abigail Folger was the Folger coffee heiress, Jay Sebring was a male celebrity hair stylist who had mad several apperaences on tv including the Batman TV series] c) it destroyed the idea and image of the hippie, the innocence of the 60's and it was the first time such a grizzly mass murder (and trial) had been unleashed upon the public consciousness.





Some people say that it my have even CONTRIBUTED to the proliferation of mass murder. I disagree. I say there has always been mass murder; now we take note of each case.


as Helen Hudson (Sigourney Weaver) said in the wonderful movie "Copy Cat" - "Series killers, mass murderers arent a 20th century invention, but we seem to be spawning them in ever greater numbers." and with technology being the way it is, the media and all...nothing will escape our notice for long. it almost becomes numbing (which is terrible). how many people heard about the man in Georgia (i think it was) arrested after he called 9/11 to report his entire family (8 people) were found dead in his home? now HE is the prime suspect. there have been others that killed MORE people than Manson and his family, but the shock and horror surrounding their story never seems to lose its unique impact over time.

you're right, weve had others before and since...but there's no denying that THIS ONE stand out for so many reasons :( and the more you learn of it, the more unsettling (at least for me) it is to contemplate. Thats why i wanted to see what others thought. i realize that all of us were around for Jeffrey Dahmer, Waco, some of us might remember (our parents definately do) Ted Bundy. And of course there's Timothy Mcveigh, Columbine and 9/11 and more. it seems like its easier for certain people to rise up and commit mass murder .
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I agree, Brandon. Now I will admit, i have READ Susan Atkins' book. and while I don't think she should come out , even IN SPITE of her current situation, that book (as far as I can tell) really gave a whole new look into the dynamic of the family AND painted a picture of Charles Manson that so many profilers and such have tried to indicate. The guy was a SCUMBAG. In a way, he's responsible for ruining and destroying MORE than just the lives of those murdered. Susan Atkins, Leslie Van Houten and all those other women...they were young, PRETTY women who COULD have lived happy lives but they were vulnerable and weak and he PREYED upon them. He abused them, kept them in servant roles. He USED the family to sustain himelf as he sought a music career and once he realized he wasnt getting that...THEN his true colors as the monster as he is shown through. It doesnt change what happened, it doesnt absolve Susan or any of the others but its just very unfortunate that Charles Manson (who always wanted to be in jail anyway, considering by the time he founded "The Family" he'd spent HALF HIS LIFE in prison prior to it) got what he wanted and didnt care who he ruined/destroyed to get it.

It boggles my mind, how people can be swept into cults, but after reading her book, I saw a little more of that phenomena. Still, I could never allow myself to be taken over by a man in that way.

Susan and the others have had to live with what they did (regardless of what brought them to that moment) until they die, and they SHOULD die in prison. nothing any of them could say or do will change what happened.

Jacob Black
09-20-2009, 07:35 PM
I wish I could get my roommate to post, she is a "Serial Killer" buff of sorts, she is in nursing but has a big interest in Clinical Psychology.. think Halle Berry in Gothika? She has always wanted to study serial killers and get in their heads, and she knows ALOT about Charles Manson and his followers. I will see if I can get her on here.

I read the book too, although I didn't buy it because I wasn't giving anything connected to the Manson Family any kind of money, and I see where you are coming from, but it just makes me angry? I guess maybe since I consider myself to be strong of mind, I just don't see how someone could convince me to do what they did.. or wair Air Jordans and kill myself to be behind a comet either for that matter. That was the "cult" mass murder I first experienced and was able to contemplate (Heaven's Gate)

And I also feel like regardless of their brainwashing, that kind of disgusting perverted behavior, that sociopathic attitude doesn't just attach itself to some people, it has to be there.. but maybe.. at the end of the day, we all have the potential to do something like this? It's scary to think about.

Flashforward
09-25-2009, 12:23 PM
Susan Atkins has died.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/25/california.manson.atkins/index.html