Who takes better CARE of their characters?

[Jill Monroe]

In terms of over all presentation, looks, powers and abilities and continuity, who takes better care of their characters?

I think when it comes to the women, DC does. Karen Berger, the legendary editor in chief of Wonder Woman's comic (in its glorious 80's hey day) remarked that "other comic houses" build women up and then tragically tear them down, where as DC women such as wonder woman, wonder girl etc are treated much better.

There are so many strong women and young women present in DC and they arent depowered, driven insane etc.


Marvel's revolving door of writers who want to make sweeping changes while ignoring /disrespecting established history or continuity of characters, leaves alot of great characters (especially the women) in ruin. Unless of course your Wolverine or Ironman :rolleyes:....even SpiderMan has had a relatively safe time over the decades while the Spider Women have not.

[Vilandra]

I have to just say, talking impressions, that I feel like Marvel women are just scenery for the men, while DC they have an almost equal footing.

[goldenboy]

I'm not involved enough in the comics world, history to really know, but I assume it's DC.

I dipped my toe in right after Avengers: Disassembled had begun. It's an interesting time, but I was looking forward to reading a traditional Avengers book and it was all nuked, thrown into chaos. Throwing Wolverine, Spidey onto an Avengers team seemed like total pandering. Bendis is actually a good writer, in his way. I like his own projects much more than his mainstream Marvel stuff. Brubaker's great on Cap.

Mark Millar's reimagining of the Avengers (Ultimates) I just found really distasteful. I only read the first bit of vol 1, so maybe it's unfair, but...just annoying, even hateable depictions of traditional superheroes. Ugh. These are good, clever writers doing things that depress and offend me. It makes sense that these depictions get more cynical and "adult" as the core readership gets older, and bored, and dwindles. Obviously, that all began back in the 80s...

Darwyn Cooke's one of my fave comic writers cos he's so old-fashioned and traditional, and truly respects the core essences of the characters. And yet he manages inject weighty, adult themes too. I wish he'd do some Marvel stuff. Jeff Parker impresses me as a fun, lighter writer.

I'm gonna follow Bendis' Spider-Woman, cos I know he loves that character so much, and the setting and tone is his specialty.

[Vilandra]

Oh lol, I didn't read the actual title of the topic lol. From Jill's post, I thought the question was, who takes better care of their female characters lol

I do think that DC is more consistent with their characters than Marvel is, though. Marvel seems to change their people's personalities and powers for that matter an awful lot.

:)

[Jill Monroe]

some of biggest tragedies of Marvel are: Phoenix (II, II and IV) & Madelynne Pryor but there are scores of other powerfull or (at one time) well written women who were removed, depowered, reworked to disastrous results and in some cases it was simply because the WRITER decided to, totally ignoring the fans and core readers. Fan favorites from MY generation like Dazzler & Magik languished in obscurity for YEARS after being well cared for by Claremont and are only JUST getting a chance to shine after nearly 15 years.

Spider-Woman is probably the ONLY good thing Bendis has done after he RUINED the Avengers....one of marvels most trusted and established properties with Disassembled, House of M & Decimation (which affected all of marvel). George Perez had managed to do what readers like ME appreciate...he UPDATED the characters in Vol III without making them unrecognizable or unrelatable to those who had followed them. He played up classic looks, aspects but made them appear MODERN and in most cases (namely the Scarlett Witch) they got major and long over due power boosts and clear descriptions of their power. for a MOMENT, it seemed like the Avengers could truly be marvel's answer to the Justice League. But not anymore as of 2004 thanks to fucking Bendis.

[Black King]

Marvel likes changing up its characters more for whatever they think gives them the best drama like a soap opera.

DC as a general approach seems to concentrate on the plot and story telling while maintaining characters for future stories.



I think it all honesty Marvel likes to cater to that little impulse in some people that like to see Heroes torn down and the like. If you look at the history of some of the characters they're all beaten, humiliated, haunted and with few exceptions much MUCH more angst ridden then their DC counter parts. Its generally Marvel's formula for success pick character and send them through hell until movie or new writer. DC has gotten a little into the habit too but Geoff Johns, Greg Ruska and Grant Morrison seem to be keeping a bit more lighthearted with the rebirth of long dead heroes, the triumph of good and the growing legacy characters that appear almost in each title.

[Jill Monroe]

Marvel likes changing up its characters more for whatever they think gives them the best drama like a soap opera.

hardly. as soap operas are generally WELL WRITTEN. if anyone gave "soap opera" or drama it was writers like Claremont who focused on the characters and their details.

Morrison couldve been good for the X-men had he not flooded the team with a parade of pointless, STUPID characters, introduced that '2nd mutation' crap and trashed established favorites like the White Queen.

DC as a general approach seems to concentrate on the plot and story telling while maintaining characters for future stories.



I think it all honesty Marvel likes to cater to that little impulse in some people that like to see Heroes torn down and the like. If you look at the history of some of the characters they're all beaten, humiliated, haunted and with few exceptions much MUCH more angst ridden then their DC counter parts. Its generally Marvel's formula for success pick character and send them through hell until movie or new writer. DC has gotten a little into the habit too but Geoff Johns, Greg Ruska and Grant Morrison seem to be keeping a bit more lighthearted with the rebirth of long dead heroes, the triumph of good and the growing legacy characters that appear almost in each title.

yes....does DOES MAINTAIN their characters, even through the changing of staff. They dont allow them to be changed, or dumbed down.

one NOTABLE misstep though was John Byrne's handling of Wonder Woman. Being the co pilot for Dark Phoenix, you would have thought HE'D know better but oh well...no one is perfect.

[J.Gumb]

They dont allow them to be changed

I admit, I am woefully out of my depth as I do not read as much as research, but would that not cause the characters to become stagnant? What do you mean by dont allow them to change?

[Jill Monroe]

I admit, I am woefully out of my depth as I do not read as much as research, but would that not cause the characters to become stagnant? What do you mean by dont allow them to change?


perhaps i was not clear enough...

DC characters have not suffered under this unfortunate trend of arrogant young writers coming in and making sweeping, radical changes to established characters with NO respect to past history or continuity the way it happens in Marvel.

There are SO MANY glaring examples.


A character can progress and be BUILT upon and changes come that way. George Perez is a writer who is good for that.

[Flashforward]

Dark Horse, because their properties are licensed. :hehe2:

I think both Marvel and DC have screwed up their characters lately so it's a bad question for me.

[Rampage]

I will take the opposite view here, if for nothing else than kicks.

I think that Marvel has done lots of things that DC has failed miserably in doing.

1) They have many more female characters that emerge on their own, not as an offshoot of a male's "neck of the woods". Susan Storm, Ms. marvel/Binary/Storm, and many more females have their own origin and exist on their own. Contrast that to DC in which the majority of major female characters seem to spring from a male's universe (Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, etc). other than wonder Woman they all seem to be "male character"-girl or -woman. In large part Marvel has avoided that.

2) DC is so overpowered that while it seems that the women are way stronger than in Marvel, I would argue that is a universal difference rather than simply better writing. Once you compensate for the Kryptonians in fact, I would argue that Marvel could put up an extremely competitive matchup to the most powerful women in DC.

3) It can be said that Marvel is tougher on the women because they decided to focus on them at ALL. Many of the fucked up falls taken by the Marvel women come form the fact that marvel focused on them, and while we may not like what they did to them, I would argue that it beats the relative anonymity most women in DC are in. Other than Wonder Woman, where are the female-themed crossover events? Where is the female-led team of mostly men a la Storm, Vindicator, Wasp or Ms. Marvel?

Just a few counterpoints. I actually hate what Marvel has done to its women in a few situations (OK, overall) I simply don't think that DC deserves a pass.

[Jill Monroe]

I will take the opposite view here, if for nothing else than kicks.

I think that Marvel has done lots of things that DC has failed miserably in doing.

1) They have many more female characters that emerge on their own, not as an offshoot of a male's "neck of the woods". Susan Storm, Ms. marvel/Binary/Storm, and many more females have their own origin and exist on their own. Contrast that to DC in which the majority of major female characters seem to spring from a male's universe (Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, etc). other than wonder Woman they all seem to be "male character"-girl or -woman. In large part Marvel has avoided that.

You're right about that. Marvel women DO have their own origins and history and are not merely female counterparts to male characters (there are a few exceptions though) . Even Madelynne, who began as a mysterious clone of Jean Grey has an excellent stand alone history.

Susan Storm is one of the greatest successes of Marvel, I'll definately grant you that. She's a PERFECT example of a character who was upgraded to show respect and appreciation for women in action but WITHOUT changing her so much that she became unrecognizable both in presentation or continuity. Even NOW she remains consistent (which is amazing) but is not BORING or stagnant. She's had tragedy, she's had moments of wax and wane in her powers but still remains the most powerfull member of the FF and one of MU's most powerfull heroines. Dazzler is another example, a character that was aimed toward young girls and women from the get go and is now regarded as one of the leaders of the revolution in the way women were shown in marvel BUT look what was done to her? Look how she is regarded by kids today? DESPITE her history and record.

Storm- there was a time when Storm was shown to be so powerfull, such a force of nature that she was WIDELY regarded by readers across the board to be strong enough to take down even Super Man (and in the marvel /dc cross overs she took down Starfire AND Wonder Woman ). She was once undoubtedly an "omega level mutant" but now...she's almost marginalized.

Ms. Marvel - I love her SO much. She's one of Marvel's most powerfull women and has even joined the ranks of the Silver Surfer in her days as Binary. A strong woman with a rich history and honestly? aside from what happened recently with Ironman/Civil War/Secret Invision/Dark Reign crap...Carol has enjoyed the benefit of an upgrade (despite not QUITE being at Binary level anymore) from her original form without becoming unrecognizable in her personality or appearence. The writer behind her series said in an interview that he grew up with her, he remembered her debut (and her comic gave us characters like Mystique) and he wanted to respect all of that and what she'd been thru up to the point that her 2nd series began. He did an excellent job. I AM upset about what happened to her and Moonstone taking over, but she's BACK now...so we'll see how things go now.

In DC there are some that stand along side Wonder Woman. Power Girl is a good example. There's also Circe (a villainess who is epic and powerfull enough to take down not just WW but Superman as well). The current Wonder Girl , although a derivative of WW is another excellent character and Cat Woman ...well no, I cant include her in good confidence because they dont know what to do with her now after her glorious run in the 90s thru about the "Year 2" storyline (imo)

2) DC is so overpowered that while it seems that the women are way stronger than in Marvel, I would argue that is a universal difference rather than simply better writing. Once you compensate for the Kryptonians in fact, I would argue that Marvel could put up an extremely competitive matchup to the most powerful women in DC.

I think the potential is there but again, you'd have to wonder who would be overseeing that. I see your point though now that i look at it, i still think, however, there's more respect for history/continuity in characters of DC...and even when they manage to clean up a character with a confusing history (Wonder Girl I/Troia) they manage to do it in a way that doesnt take away from her achievements or powers BUT does still somehow tie everything together in a believable way. Why couldnt they do that with Jean Grey/Phoenix? You know just as well as I do the tragedy of Phoenix II vs Phoenix IV LOL.

3) It can be said that Marvel is tougher on the women because they decided to focus on them at ALL. Many of the fucked up falls taken by the Marvel women come form the fact that marvel focused on them, and while we may not like what they did to them, I would argue that it beats the relative anonymity most women in DC are in. Other than Wonder Woman, where are the female-themed crossover events? Where is the female-led team of mostly men a la Storm, Vindicator, Wasp or Ms. Marvel?

Yes. Phoenix II is a prime example. Jim Shooter (the editor in chief at the time of the Dark Phoenix saga) decided that it was the "morally" right thing to do to have her answer for her crime of being a "5 billion mass murderer" . That was probably the first example of a woman (Marvel Girl ) rising to such dizzying heights and becoming the standard for which all other women would have to rise to, being toppled down in such a tragic way. How come no MEN have had to answer for their crimes to that degree? Sinister and the Mutant Massacre? Dr. Doom for what he did to Ms. Marvel II? Cyclops for what he did to Madelynne? ( it doesnt get much more shitty than THAT)

Again, i think that the women in DC, despite many of them being derivatives of male characters are not completely overshadowed. Power Girl is a huge fan favorite, as is the current Wonder Girl and of course Wonder Woman who is probably the most iconic female super heroine of any medium in American pop culture. Does Marvel have a heroine on that level? Phoenix II (at her height was a fan/industry fav)....maybe Ms. Marvel? Storm? I think DC in GENERAL is a little more anonymous than Marvel. It has been for years but still it remains strong and well maintained in terms of writing and quality. It hasnt gone out of its way to try to become "ultra real" and "gritty" the way the trend has been in Marvel. it KEEPS the fantasy aspect that makes comics appealing to readers (at least ones that i know anyway lol)



Just a few counterpoints. I actually hate what Marvel has done to its women in a few situations (OK, overall) I simply don't think that DC deserves a pass.

good points for discussion :)

[Jacob Black]

Ill just speak as a casual fan of comics. I don't know any of the writers. I just know that pretty much every female character I love, somehow she becomes LESS powerful along the way or depowered completely.

My favorite character in Marvel is Moonstar. I know she may not be popular but I have seen her go through so many damn extreme changes that tapped into her potential, what she is capable of, only to see her now depowered and scared to use her abilities. It just seems to me that Marvel has a tendency to almost dumb down it's female characters in favor of the more popular male characters, which is just stupid to me.

[Rampage]

Have at thee Jill Monroe!!!

LMAO!!! Let's take a look at a few of your points.

In DC there are some that stand along side Wonder Woman. Power Girl is a good example. There's also Circe (a villainess who is epic and powerfull enough to take down not just WW but Superman as well). The current Wonder Girl , although a derivative of WW is another excellent character

I agree the characters are good. But put pf those you named, only WW and Circe stand alone as counterpoints to each other. Power Girl is a Supergirl for the JSA who is popular not only because she is well-written but also famously because she has the best drawn rack in the history of comics, a gravity-defying set of mammary glands that have caused more pimple-faced fanboy losers to body-glue pages together than any Playboy Playmate could ever imagine. Not the equality you are shooting for IMO.

Why couldnt they do that with Jean Grey/Phoenix? You know just as well as I do the tragedy of Phoenix II vs Phoenix IV LOL.

A real tragedy, to be sure. But much harder to sort out than the Donna Troy crap-up.

Yes. Phoenix II is a prime example. Jim Shooter (the editor in chief at the time of the Dark Phoenix saga) decided that it was the "morally" right thing to do to have her answer for her crime of being a "5 billion mass murderer" . That was probably the first example of a woman (Marvel Girl ) rising to such dizzying heights and becoming the standard for which all other women would have to rise to, being toppled down in such a tragic way. How come no MEN have had to answer for their crimes to that degree? Sinister and the Mutant Massacre? Dr. Doom for what he did to Ms. Marvel II? Cyclops for what he did to Madelynne? ( it doesnt get much more shitty than THAT)

True, but I would argue the closest approximations to Dark Phoenix are Michael Korvac (deceased) and Thanos (cursed with immortality and forever chasing the favor of Lady Death). The both had to pay for their crimes, with Korvac paying the ultimate price.

Power Girl is a huge fan favorite, as is the current Wonder Girl and of course Wonder Woman who is probably the most iconic female super heroine of any medium in American pop culture. Does Marvel have a heroine on that level?

No, though it could be argued that Wonder Woman is an icon that transcends gender. She is a top ten hero, hands down. Lynda Carter made her worldwide in the same way Bill Bixby put Hulk on the crossover map.

But look deeper. Does DC have any of the next 10 female heroes? Maybe Supergirl or Lois Lane (not even a hero) or Batgirl (due directly to Batman and Superman, Icon #'s 1 AND 1A), but even if you concede that you otherwise get a steady stream of Marvel heroines from Storm to Sue Storm to Rogue to Jean Grey/Phoenix to She-Hulk to even Elektra. And as you move down the list you get even more MU females.

Marvel screws with their women, but at least they deal with them. DC fails in my book in that they benignly neglect them for the most part while they base major events on the deaths of extraneous characters. It takes a lot more courage to kill Phoenix than it does to kill Sue Dibny IMO.