Marvel's Cosmic Ladder

[Jill Monroe]

Yes, i know people from that toxic board MD had a thing for discussing ladders. Sometimes it yieled GREAT discussion...other times it degenerated into a bunch of MESS!

I wanted to revisit a topic that I know something but certainly not EVERYTHING about....Marvel's Cosmic entities. Among that elite group is my absolute fav, Phoenix! But I always wanted to know where she fit in. Let some people tell it, She was no match for the "Cosmic Cube" or someone as low as Silver Surfer, but as it turns out Phoenix is MORE than a match for Silver Surfer and has even taken down Galactus and earned the notice of Eternity and in the Marvel Universe Index (at one time) she was billed as "2nd only to the creator" but I digress, here's a clean, "start up" ladder.


Omnipotence

One-Above-All • Living Tribunal • Nemesis

Abstracts

Death • Eternity • Infinity • Oblivion

Entropy • Lord Chaos • Master Order

Universal Functions

Abraxas • Galactus • In-Betweener • Phoenix

Unspecified

Celestials • Cosmic Cubes • Eon • Kronos • Stranger • Watchers

Some of these characters I have seen in the comics, others I have only heard of.

What do you think of this? its based on facts from Marvel itself. Who is missing? where should they go and why?

What about earth bound characters who have reached or are currently possessed of universe/multi universal affecting abilities?

[Flashforward]

Marvel's cosmic comics have always been among my favorite. Here are a few thoughts.

Possible additions:

-Infinity gems/Infinity Gauntlet, Magus, the Goddess, Ego the Living Planet, the Collector, the Grandmaster, Love and Hate, Kronos (Titan God that created Drax), Mephisto, Abyss, the Beyonder (He's not a fucking Inhuman!)

My personal favorite is Thanos, and you have to respect someone who was able to take out the entire cosmic pantheon and replace Eternity as top dog. He's not technically an entity, but he does seem to be coupled with death these days, so who knows?

Plus, the best and greatest:

-Jack Kirby as god, as seen in Mark Waid's FF run

As for Earth bound entities or individuals that can affect realities and universes through powers or abilities, there are a ton of them. Hell, Reed Richards is one. There are also extraterrestrial beings like the High Evolutionary that can do the same through technology. If we are going to go down that path, it might be proper to draw a distinction between beings who can exert their influence on universes through the use of their own abilities, as well as those who can do so through the use of their intellect and scientific knowledge.

[Jill Monroe]

There are some nice additions you mentioned...but where would they go?

Thanos has never faced Phoenix (that I've seen) so he never took out the ENTIRE cosmic pantheon.

for Earth Bound: Reed Richards? NEXT!---->

I would think more like: Franklin Richards, Binary, Scarlet Witch to name a few.

[Flashforward]

There are some nice additions you mentioned...but where would they go?

Thanos has never faced Phoenix (that I've seen) so he never took out the ENTIRE cosmic pantheon.

for Earth Bound: Reed Richards? NEXT!---->

I would think more like: Franklin Richards, Binary, Scarlet Witch to name a few.

I'm pretty sure Thanos killed off Phoenix with a thought when he instantly wiped out half the Earth's population during the Infinity Gauntlet Saga. That's why only Cyclops was there fighting so furiously. :hehe2:

Many of those I listed are simply universal entities that are evocative of some sort of larger archetypal mode. Some, like Love and Hate, could easily be classified as an abstract being. Beings like the Beyonder definitely go under universal functions.

I'll try to come up with a more comprehensive list of Earthly reality manipulators in just a bit. :)

[Jill Monroe]

you know better than that. you cant bolster your argument with "Im pretty sure..." if you dont have any concrete evidence, then KEEP IT MOVING honey! :rolleyes: --->

Thanos has not faced Phoenix (II, III or even IV) and therefore, he has not dealt with ALL in the cosmic pantheon. Interestingly enough I always wondered WHY she wasnt involved in the Infinity Gauntlet storyline. Even if you took away her host body (Jean or Rachel) she is the embodiment of all psionic energy of every living thing that is, was or WILL BE.

[Black King]

The rumor is the X-offices has issues with loaning out their characters. Thats why in a majority of crossovers Phoenix, the Shi'ar and others don't appear or just get handwaved away. Personally i'm surprised "War of Kings" is happening with the cast it has. its gotten better in recent years.

and you got to have love for Thanos, a guy tips the cosmic balance of the universe for the sake of simple shiggles.

[Jill Monroe]

It was surprising to see Phoenix (IV) take such a big role in Marvel Contest of Champions II, but even though she was a presence, she was only in specific panels. NOW it makes sense. I always wondered why Phoenix (II, III or IV) was hardly involved in many cross overs that should have included her. especially ones of a cosmic nature.

[Rampage]

That is one of many problems with a ladder like this one. The characters are often seen rarely and not in situations that lend weel to this sort of comparison.

Another issue is how strong and weak a character is portrayed from one issue to another. Galactus suffers from this the most, as many comics feature him hungry and then losing to a lesser being. Galactus, at his height of satiation, is himself the concept of Entropy, and deserves standing higher than he is placed here. At his weakest, he would barely make the ladder at all.

[Flashforward]

you know better than that. you cant bolster your argument with "Im pretty sure..." if you dont have any concrete evidence, then KEEP IT MOVING honey! :rolleyes: --->

Thanos has not faced Phoenix (II, III or even IV) and therefore, he has not dealt with ALL in the cosmic pantheon. Interestingly enough I always wondered WHY she wasnt involved in the Infinity Gauntlet storyline. Even if you took away her host body (Jean or Rachel) she is the embodiment of all psionic energy of every living thing that is, was or WILL BE.

http://www.alternatecover.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/3_infinitygauntlet2.jpg

Marvel Girl is listed among the disappeared. :heee:

It seems to me that none of the other phoenix descendants, like Rachel, etc, have ever manifested powers anywhere near in scope to what Jean as Phoenix and Dark Phoenix had. Plus, if Thanos could beat Eternity, it's almost certain that he could beat the Phoenix. I like Phoenix very much, but there is no way at all that the Phoenix force is more powerful than Eternity, unless it is life itself or connected to a larger more central force in the universe. After all, Eternity is all there is and all there ever will be, so even by definition isn't that more powerful than Phoenix? Once you get past that level, the only being tops them all is the Living Tribunal, who is just a representative for the main god of the Marvel Universe.

[Flashforward]

That is one of many problems with a ladder like this one. The characters are often seen rarely and not in situations that lend weel to this sort of comparison.

Another issue is how strong and weak a character is portrayed from one issue to another. Galactus suffers from this the most, as many comics feature him hungry and then losing to a lesser being. Galactus, at his height of satiation, is himself the concept of Entropy, and deserves standing higher than he is placed here. At his weakest, he would barely make the ladder at all.

That's very true. After all, after Waid's run, Galactus was completely de-powered, returned to human form, and ate a corn dog with the Human Torch. Somehow, around the time of Annihilation, he showed up powered all over again and was being used to power the core of the Annihilation Wave. Is he the grand eater of worlds that we always thought he was, or is he a chump that can get beat on by Annihilus?

[Jill Monroe]

Marvel Girl wasnt PHOENIX II (or III) she was Phoenix IV. at the time the Infinity Gauntlet occurred, RACHEL SUMMERS was Phoenix III and was not involved in the story. Don't try to split hair's with ME honey, you'll LOSE everytime! ;) NEXT!---->

[Black King]

I can't remember one time the Phoenix in any form has shown up cosmic level marvel. Unless it takes place in the X-men side of the Marvel U then i think you can unofficially write Phoenix out of the cosmic pantheon. The X-men seem to deal with cosmic level events involving a completely different pantheon from the normal Marvel U. Instead of The Living Tribunal they use Roma as multiverse guardian, The Anthropomorphic Entities are ignored unless it relates directly to Phoenix. Even Magic with characters like Magick (both characters), Margali Szardos, Nightcrawler's father: Azazel (whatever he is) and Selene (the whole Hellfire club really) go by different sets of rules and understandings from mainstream universe and only occasionally get named dropped in passing.

[Jill Monroe]

I can't remember one time the Phoenix in any form has shown up cosmic level marvel. Unless it takes place in the X-men side of the Marvel U then i think you can unofficially write Phoenix out of the cosmic pantheon. The X-men seem to deal with cosmic level events involving a completely different pantheon from the normal Marvel U. Instead of The Living Tribunal they use Roma as multiverse guardian, The Anthropomorphic Entities are ignored unless it relates directly to Phoenix. Even Magic with characters like Magick (both characters), Margali Szardos, Nightcrawler's father: Azazel (whatever he is) and Selene (the whole Hellfire club really) go by different sets of rules and understandings from mainstream universe and only occasionally get named dropped in passing.


I have noticed that as well, and good observation on Roma, she seems to answer the need /position filled by a few of MU's cosmic beings for the X-men's corner of MU. Magik (both of them), Margali and Selene are EASY answers to Doctor Strange.


I was reading Garrick's comments about Galactus and his standing being higher on the cosmic ladder. Galactus' owes his rebirth to Phoenix, it is said that she ensured Galan survived long enough to meet and unite with the "sentience of the universe" to be reborn as Galactus. He's been checked by Phoenix (III) three in battle but OF COURSE I know you'll say its because he was "hungry at the time" lol.

If he's a "function" to keep the balance of things, making sure worlds come to an end in their due time, WHERE ELSE should he be on the cosmic ladder then?

I think Roma would fit under the "unspecified" tier.

[Rampage]

NOT Phoenix. The sentience of the previous universe sustained him and he died, only to be reborn as Galactus into the new universe. He SOLELY existed in the previous universe, before the Phoenix Force.

Phoenix II did engage him mightily in battle and the fact that she could engage him is an accomplishment on her part, but Galactus was prepared even in his weakened state to take her energy by force. This talk of their battle raises yet another question: is this "ladder" a measure of who goes where or simply a who can beat who ladder?

I also would like to introduce Michael Korvac to the ladder at least where Phoenix is...

[Jill Monroe]

NOT Phoenix. The sentience of the previous universe sustained him and he died, only to be reborn as Galactus into the new universe. He SOLELY existed in the previous universe, before the Phoenix Force.

Phoenix II did engage him mightily in battle and the fact that she could engage him is an accomplishment on her part, but Galactus was prepared even in his weakened state to take her energy by force. This talk of their battle raises yet another question: is this "ladder" a measure of who goes where or simply a who can beat who ladder?

I also would like to introduce Michael Korvac to the ladder at least where Phoenix is...


- The Phoenix Force- The culmination of all psionic energy that exists, has existed, or ever will exist, via sentient life. Her actual function is unclear, but she has been described as 'the passion of creation', 'rebirth through destruction', or 'to burn away the obsolete'. In the universe which existed before the current Marvel Universe, the Phoenix Force saved all life from damnation, and ensured that Galan remained alive long enough to meet and unite with the Sentience of the Universe , to be reborn as Galactus in the current creation. .


you were saying? If Phoenix represents all sentient thought that WAS, IS and WILL BE, then obviously she was there the "first time round" when Galactus wasnt even "Galactus" yet. this quote above bares that out.

and it wasnt Phoenix II who fought him and drove him away, it was Phoenix III (Rachel). She disrupted his feeding process and was able to over power and drive him back. Defeated, Galactus called her out as a hypocrate saying that in her defending this one planet she denied scores of generations the chance @ life by using her power to such an extent.

Some of these beings would never fight, some simply just ARE so I personally wouldnt think about "who can beat who" when figureing out a ladder. But that's just me.

[Rampage]

I stand corrected. I do stand by my earlier statement that he precedes the Phoenix Force, as the one that saved him perished with the old universe and was not reborn. Indeed: Galactus is the SOLE survivor of the previous universe and predates THIS Phoenix Force.

The battle you cite is the second one for Rachel (Phoenix III). He also came to earth for her and she with Excalibur fought against him but finally gave in after seeing that the battle alone was utter devastation. He proceeded to feed on her but the stars began to go out, showing the Phoenix's needed position in the Universe. He then left her.

I repeat that we should consider Michael Korvac.