Hip Hop's Homophobia And Black Gay America's Silence

[Osiris]

Hip-Hop Fridays: Hip Hop's Homophobia And Black Gay America's Silence by Jasmyne A. Cannick

Last month, rapper Busta Rhymes let the world know how he feels about gays. While in Miami, Busta was at a diner with his bodyguards when a fan came up to him from behind and tapped him on the shoulder to congratulate him for his recent "comeback." According to the New York Post, the diner was located next door to the popular gay club Twist, and the restaurant was "packed with transvestites, gay men and drag queens, which obviously made Busta a little edgy."

The paper went on to report that, "Before the guy could even mutter a word, Busta turned around and repeatedly screamed, 'Why the f--k you touchin' me, man? Get the f--k away from me.'" The Post also went on to say that Busta's bodyguards jumped into the situation by shoving the man away. Afterwards, Busta reportedly whispered to his bodyguards, 'I hate f--king faggots, man.'"

Busta's actions are reprehensible. No matter what his personal feelings about gay men are, as a celebrity you know that when you are in public fans of all kinds are likely going to approach you. But what I take particular issue with in Busta's altercation is that unless the fan said, "Hi I'm gay and I want to congratulate you on your comeback," how in the hell would Busta know if he was gay? Was Busta partaking in gay profiling?

This latest incident comes directly on the heels of the release of Busta's "Touch It" remix which continues to be in heavy rotation on urban radio stations across the country. Earlier this month, "Touch It," which is out on the Aftermath/Interscope label, was number 5 on the Billboard Hot Rap Tracks Chart. Featuring Lloyd Banks, DMX, Mary J. Blige, Missy Elliot, Papoose, and Rah Digga, the song also features a line where rapper DMX says, "Fuck you faggot, I shot at you!"

Now let's get real about this.

When radio shock jock David Lenihan used the word "coon," a racial slur, instead of "coup" in a story about Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her attributes for the post of NFL commissioner, the St. Louis shock jock was immediately fired.

Likewise, if a song done by a white artist featured lyrics calling for the shooting of niggers, it would have been headline news in a matter or minutes. Civil rights groups all over the country would have issued statements and press releases calling for the removal of the song from the rotation at radio stations and believe me, no matter how popular the song might have been, radio stations would have stopped playing it immediately, because no one wants to be a racist.

Because Busta and DMX are popular black rappers talking about gays, black America finds nothing wrong with that. After all, blacks overwhelmingly disapprove of gays anyway, right?

Wrong.

The exploitation of women and gays in today's hip hop culture has become increasingly accepted by our own silence.

Hip hop artists like Busta Rhymes and DMX vilify gays in their music while at the same time surrounding themselves with scantily clad women in their videos.

While it is true that in recent years a new level of consciousness around the use of women as props in videos and the language used to describe them has become a major focus for many black civil rights organizations and women's rights groups, no one comes to the defense of gays who are equally targeted by many hip hop artists, not even gays themselves.

Over the past decade the familiar dance music known as "house music" has all but been replaced by hip hop in gay nightclubs around the county. Many songs that are both misogynistic and homophobic are blasted from speakers in clubs that are frequented by same gender loving people. Young black gay men and lesbian women rush out to buy the latest albums from rappers who publicly degrade their lives.

After an extensive Internet search on gay groups protesting rap, I found that even the usual suspects have been quiet on the Busta Rhymes' incident and the DMX lyrics. This is probably just as well since these groups tend to carry no weight in black America and would probably further compound the issue by having white gays protest black rappers. No, this issue needs to be dealt with by blacks.

With our silence, we are condoning the actions of artists like Busta Rhymes and the lyrics of artists like DMX. We cannot protest white shock jocks on their use of racially insensitive language and then say nothing about the sexually offensive language used by black rappers. One type of oppression isn't worse than another. Black America has an ethical and social responsibility to call out its own.

Busta Rhymes and DMX are just the latest in a string of rappers and reggae artists, both black and white, that continue to perpetuate violence against gay men in their music. Each time the offense gets worse and is still never met with the type of outrage from blacks that would merit a change in a culture we helped to create.

Author and poet Audre Lorde once said, "There is no such thing as a single-issue struggle because we do not live single-issue lives."

Black gays play the most important role in their own liberation. We need to call out these hip hop artists and challenge them on their use of homophobic language. No one else is going to do it for us, so it's got to start with us.


Jasmyne Cannick is a member of the National Association of Black Journalists and a board member of the National Black Justice Coalition. She can be reached via her website at www.jasmynecannick.com (http://www.jasmynecannick.com/) or via email at jasmynecannick@hotmail.com. This article was published in Between The Lines News - Issue 1416 (http://zzz.pridesource.com/).


Jasmyne A. Cannick

[Jill Monroe]

well, i'm not black..but i HAVE seen what this article is talking about. its one of the many things that Bush himself tapped into to help him win this last election.

i'm friends with alot of gay black men actually (they seem to trust me more than they do their own peers) and the ones who are "thuggish" and "downlow" also lend themselves to the exploitation of more openly gay black men as well as white men. its like watching a shark eat its own young..its very sad to see.

the hip hop "industry" in america is just that now.. an INDUSTRY..its more about perpetuating trends (and stereotypes) than ever..and its a far cry from what it used to be. I find it VERY disturbing how artists like "Elephant Man" and "Beanie Siegal"(or however its spelled) can come and pump their venomous, hatefull lyrics about gays in their music in the clubs (especially in NYC) and gain a large following from it...and NO ONE stands up against it.

but i suppose there's not much that i, a white woman, can say on it other than i HAVE observed with the article is talking about.

[Osiris]

well, i'm not black..but i HAVE seen what this article is talking about. its one of the many things that Bush himself tapped into to help him win this last election.

i'm friends with alot of gay black men actually (they seem to trust me more than they do their own peers) and the ones who are "thuggish" and "downlow" also lend themselves to the exploitation of more openly gay black men as well as white men. its like watching a shark eat its own young..its very sad to see.

the hip hop "industry" in america is just that now.. an INDUSTRY..its more about perpetuating trends (and stereotypes) than ever..and its a far cry from what it used to be. I find it VERY disturbing how artists like "Elephant Man" and "Beanie Siegal"(or however its spelled) can come and pump their venomous, hatefull lyrics about gays in their music in the clubs (especially in NYC) and gain a large following from it...and NO ONE stands up against it.

but i suppose there's not much that i, a white woman, can say on it other than i HAVE observed with the article is talking about.

Once again you have proven that you have superior mental observations. I have two black gay friends one male and one female, and I often lament on the issues addressed in this article. We discourse about it on the regular. The same goes with religion, but that is a different disscusion. Until people in this case black people stand up for justice and equality, I fear that things will only get worse.

[DonDaddyD]

You know, in my experience I've found it is a really deeply-rooted cultural thing. Most Black people coming out of the carribean have generally been bought up to have an intollerance for homosexuality, normally being born out of a lack of understanding and exposure (Buju refused to apologise for THAT song because of his Rastafarian belife). And that is seeping into other facets of Black Culture such as Hip Hop. In the face of such a large majority with an intollerance almost a defining (and equally ugly) part of the culture I think people are simply scared to stand up and be accounted for.

[Foxfire]

The music industry has always attempted to push the limits especially the artists themselves. Music has drastically changed over the years like the lyrics and the style of the rapper. I could be wrong but years ago black rappers never mentioned such derogatory lyrics as they do now. I think just a few who did indicate this massive stir to disrespect the Gay culture, black or white was perhaps Dr. Dre. And then followed Snoop Dog, etc. But that of course is a stipulation, not a fact.

Some gay and lesbian groups do not tolerate these lyrics especially with Eminem. He took plenty of heat for his hateful lyrics. And some of his lyrics were written by Dr. Dre, an African American. Its not known if these artists are homophobic or not. Listening to a lyric, is not a valid argument. Whose to say if the rapper just wants to be provocative and gain media attention. Eminem rapped about gays and lesbians but he also proved America wrong by calibrating with Elton John, who is openly gay.

My point I guess, is not everyone takes offense to these lyrics whether gay or not, black or white. Its really a person's own interpretation. Its not a solid argument to say these rappers are homophobic. And these so called "reports" are they valid? Any reporter can twist the truth.

Like Farrah, I'm not black but I am gay. If I was black, I still wouldn't take offense. Its a song, sometimes I think the African American culture attempt to use scapegoats for the racism they faced. Now I KNOW I'll be getting plenty of heat for that statement. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone in anyway, I want that to be known now. Why should black gay men need to stand up? If this is such an issue shouldn't the WHOLE gay culture stand up? What makes black gay men a victim? Is it because the rapper is black and its disrespecting the culture. I'm just trying to understand here.

[Osiris]

Having gay black friends(I know very much a cliche'), and being black myself, I know for a fact that the black community is overwhelmingly homophobic. If I were to be a betting man I would say that the primary reason is cultural. It has nothing to do with scapegoating to get revenge or something for what was done to us, but has everything to do with our sense of what we feel as black people how women and men should act. Most of this stems from our close religious affliation, in fact CNN did a poll I think last year that showed that 87% of black Americans believed religion played a major role in their life vs 60% of whites. Now Im not trying to start anything with those statistics, but our hopelessness from slavery through Jim Crow to the present made us a very religious people which as a by product also made us very homophobic IMO. The reason the author puts the responsibility on black gays and not the entire community follows the logic that the house has to be fixed within not from outside. Lets be real, if a bunch of white gays started protesting black institutions, people, or anything considered black, it would only hurt the cause more due to the already troubling racial lines drawn in this country. Lets not forget the looks white women get from black women when shes in a relationship with a black man. The overall idea is black people just tend to be more internal than external and there are still too many wounds from slavery to the present that could use some closing, and black people as a whole just arent ready to embrace things considered "white". Don't kill me, Im trying to be as candid as possible.

[DonDaddyD]

I know for a fact that the black community is overwhelmingly homophobic. If I were to be a betting man I would say that the primary reason is cultural. It has nothing to do with scapegoating to get revenge or something for what was done to us, but has everything to do with our sense of what we feel as black people how women and men should act.


YOu know I have friends and family members who would use that very sentence to justify why they are so Homophobic.


The reason the author puts the responsibility on black gays and not the entire community follows the logic that the house has to be fixed within not from outside.

That is a lot easier said than done when said homophobia is so deeply rooted into the Culture and upbringing of the vast majority of blacks. It can be done (although the back of my mind is telling me it can't be), but something that deep rooted would take decades possibly a whole TWO generations of re-educating to get some black cultures to learn that Homosexuality is not a negative thing.

The overall idea is black people just tend to be more internal than external and there are still too many wounds from slavery to the present that could use some closing, and black people as a whole just arent ready to embrace things considered "white". Don't kill me, Im trying to be as candid as possible.

If they kill you they've got to kill me first because I agree 100%, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that everything you said above is correct.:nod:

I've got the whole conversation played out in my head of a white person telling a black jamaican person (like my grandparents) that there is nothing wrong with Homosexuality, and the reply, the longest loudest most dismissive (stereotypical) kiss of the teeth ever recorded.

In short you can't have a white person telling black people as a whole what is wrong within their culture especially something as deeprooted as the homophobia. No black person would listen. The solution has to come from Black people.

[Harbinger]

In short you can't have a white person telling black people as a whole what is wrong within their culture especially something as deeprooted as the homophobia. No black person would listen. The solution has to come from Black people.


and this is where i fear NOTHING will ever come of that "solution". the deep rooted homophobia in the black community is so RAMPANT that WHITE politicians like George W. Bush were able to use it to THEIR advantage and this helped HIM win the 2004 presidential election. it was so OBVIOUS and yet no one bothered to look past the smoke screen.

I agree that a white person cant expect to tell black people "whats wrong with their culture" and expect some tremendous sweeping epiphany BUT at the same time...sometimes the most objective "observations" can come from an OUTSIDER.

It's CLEARLY recognized that the black community has a PRONOUNCED homophobia issue and that OTHERS (including the hip hop industry, politicians etc) CAPITALIZE on that.

If i were apart of that community i would take offense to those who would use an "issue" of mine to manipulate my actions.

thats just my point of view.

[Osiris]

Don't get me wrong, their what much infighting over the Presidential manipulation that Bush used to get in office. My mother and I had a deep argument over this very issue, because Bush was "Christian" and stood for those values. While there are many in our community that rebel to such manipulation, make no mistake that while many blacks are against homophobic actions, at the same time many blacks including those mentioned are still against homosexuality as a lifestyle. Since many of us are religious, we do not feel homosexuality is consistent with our various beliefs. As a Muslim while I can respect a persons democratic and life given right to live as they please, I still can't accept homosexuality as an religiously accepted practice when the Quran says that it is an abomination and against the Nature in which man and women were created.

Furthermore, considering the history between white and blacks, I don't care how objective or genuinely concerned whites could be towards blacks in any issue, blacks as a whole wont listen to any white person telling them whats wrong with us, when most of us feel that we are in the condition that we are in primarily because of whites.

[DonDaddyD]

If i were apart of that community i would take offense to those who would use an "issue" of mine to manipulate my actions.


I felt that very same way, unfortunately not everyone is afforded the same level of clarity, much rather falling under the veil ignorance simply because they don't ask enough questions, or the most important question; why.

I don't know if the answers should come from an 'outsider' though, for the sake of cultural growth from infancy to maturity, I think 'we' as a people (black people) need to start standing up and be accounted for and say 'hey this aspect of our culture isn't right'.

Sometimes I do honestly feel black people as a whole expect to get it (the answers) given to them by someone else. The majority of Black people live in the Western World, there is enough freedom and means to find the answers in order to enable the culture to grow without the need of an outsider pointing us in the right direction. In my eyes for the culture to move forward into a true self serving culture, with a solid and less self destructive identity we need to start finding answers by ourselves. - But that is a highly controversial and personal view born out of experience.

Since many of us are religious, we do not feel homosexuality is consistent with our various beliefs.

There is talk of Homophobia and homosexuality being tied into religion, ok I can understand that from Osiris' perspective with him being religious. However the Homophobia may be born out of religion but it is no longer religon's fault for the deeprooted culture homophobia found with Black society. How many Black people who aren't religious are still homophobic through a lack of understanding? Again the back of my mind is saying all of them, and whilst I laugh to myself, there is a mild truth because you'll find that the vast majority of black people have been born to be intolerant to Homosexualtiy regardless of religous belife and that is the fault of the culture not any one religion.

[Osiris]

I felt that very same way, unfortunately not everyone is afforded the same level of clarity, much rather falling under the veil ignorance simply because they don't ask enough questions, or the most important question; why.

I don't know if the answers should come from an 'outsider' though, for the sake of cultural growth from infancy to maturity, I think we as a people need to start standing up and be accounted for and say 'hey this isn't right'.

Sometimes I do honestly feel black people as a whole expect to get it (the answers) given to them by someone else. The majority of Black people live in the Western World there is enough freedom and means to find the Answers in order to enable the culture to grow without the need of an Outsider pointing us in the right direction. In my eyes for the culture to move forward into a true self serving culture, with a solid and less self destructive identity we need to start finding answers by ourselves. - But that is a highly controversial and personal view born out of experience.

As you know its hard for a people who have always served others to all of a sudden learn to serve themselves.

I think the big issue is are those who feel its wrong willing to speak out?

Like I alluded to, many people that feel its wrong to mistreat gays, still feel that being gay in of itself wrong, so how does one speak out for something they don't truly agree with?

I believe the confusion and/or stagnation rests in the open contradiction most don't want to feel like hypocrits, and those who are blatantly wrong use this non-action as a way to openly get away with hate.

Personally, I have no problem with speaking out against homophobia. As my friends would tell you, they know I don't religiously agree with their lifestyles, but that has nothing to do with them as a person. I would definitely fight to see them free.

[DonDaddyD]

I think the big issue is are those who feel its wrong willing to speak out?

How can they? They don't appeal to their people; Black Homosexuals have no platform, no medium to raise their issues in such a way that would compel Black people as a whole to listen. And even if they did have a platform, effective medium and a voice to speak with I doubt Black people would listen anyway.

Such cultural change would take generations of re-education.

Like I alluded to, many people that feel its wrong to mistreat gays, still feel that being gay in of itself wrong, so how does one speak out for something they don't truly agree with?

confusion and/or stagnation rests in the open contradiction most don't want to feel like hypocrits, and those who are blatantly wrong use this non-action as a way to openly get away with hate.

Personally, I have no problem with speaking out against homophobia. As my friends would tell you, they know I don't religiously agree with their lifestyles, but that has nothing to do with them as a person. I would definitely fight to see them free.

Aren't you perpetuating what you are speaking out against?

Part of the problem is that many black people 'have no problem with Homosexuality, they just don't agree with it'. That attitude leads to what we have sung in hip hop songs and has gay people the target of much negativity.

To not agree with homosexuality, is not to like it and to not like it is to ultimately have a problem with it.

The age old question has to be thrown your way Osiris, if you had a Child that you bought up to be muslim and yet upon exxploring their sexuality found they were homosexual how would you feel about it, the situation and your child?

You don't need to answer that question (you don't need to justify your convictions to me) I'm just drawing my attention to what I see as the problem. That being 'the not agreeing with homosexuality'.

The only solution I can see is the total acceptance from any point of view that Homosexuality is not a negative thing.

[Osiris]

I understand, but to answer your question, I would obviously not agree with my childs choice, but ultimately it is their choice alone. That would not influence my love for my child one way or the other, as I would love my child and support them no matter what.

Im not cut from the extreme cloth of religion, for if one was to explore the true essence of modern monotheistic traditions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, they would find that tolerance is more important than conflict.

I don't have to agree with ones actions to accept them. I don't drink or smoke and I feel those are against my religion, but that doesnt mean that I don't like people just because they choose to indulge in such things.

[Harbinger]

it escapes me why people think it MATTERS if they "agree or disagree" with another person's lifestyle. gay people are HUMAN BEINGS...their sexual orientation is just but one part of who they are. this thread exacerbates the root of the problem...OTHER people's problem with something that ultimately is none of their business in the first place.

and then you have OTHERS who EXPLOIT this problem (which is also shown here).

how can you claim to speak against homophobia but then back pedal and say you dont agree with people for being who they are ..."from a religious perspective".

RELIGION is what kills people and seems to purvey intolerance.

[Osiris]

it escapes me why people think it MATTERS if they "agree or disagree" with another person's lifestyle. gay people are HUMAN BEINGS...their sexual orientation is just but one part of who they are. this thread exacerbates the root of the problem...OTHER people's problem with something that ultimately is none of their business in the first place.

and then you have OTHERS who EXPLOIT this problem (which is also shown here).

how can you claim to speak against homophobia but then back pedal and say you dont agree with people for being who they are ..."from a religious perspective".

RELIGION is what kills people and seems to purvey intolerance.

You completely missed the point which is obvious by your post, and spinned this diaglogue to completely different agenda. Personally, I could care less how you feel about my religion or religion in general for that matter. It is what it is. There are those that use their understanding of their beliefs to hate and there are others that use their beliefs to care. In this issue as it relates to black people it appears that while both groups are in disagreement to how gays should be treated, both also agree that it is inconsistant from what their beliefs teach them.

No one especially me ever stated that I/we care if it mattered how we felt about anyones lifestyle. This thread was about a problem in the black community and how to best address it using the information we do know combined with personal experience.

Furthermore, it obviously matters what black people feel about the gay lifestyle hence the reason of the article in the first place. Instead of just ranting, try to read what is written and try to understand. It does matter to black people and there is no need to point out who is human and who is not, another point of the pro-gay article that I posted.

Wrap your mind around that for a second!

[DonDaddyD]

it escapes me why people think it MATTERS if they "agree or disagree" with another person's lifestyle.

As I said previously clarity and ignorance. Obviously Osiris and yourself Guardian can see past the issue of not agreeing and yet accepting as your able to talk about this from a multi-sided perspective. But many can't and for me that there is the problem many can't seperate not agreeing and yet being able to accept.

It really shouldn't be a problem to someone what other people do with their lives, but when asked to face that situation, when asked to look at it i.e. a Father learning that his child is gay, that is where the issue of them agreeing or disagreeing with it becomes a factor and a problem with homophobia is developed.

In the end I just wanted to highlight what I percieve as the cause of Black peoples deep rooted cultural homophobia from a first hand experience. Many can't live with it because they don't agree with it, they see is as wrong and unnatural. For me not agreeing with it is very much the problem. It preceeds the homophobia, it perpetuates it.

[Osiris]

Many can't live with it because they don't agree with it, they see is as wrong and unnatural. For me not agreeing with it is very much the problem. It preceeds the homophobia, it perpetuates it.

I have to respectfully disagree. My faith dictates what I percieve to be right or wrong. However, my faith also guides me how to deal with what is percieved wrong as we can't expect all to be cookie cutter in this world.

To say that because one disagrees with an action or belief helps perpetuate a negative reaction is wrong.

Thats like saying that because I don't believe people should drink and I think its wrong, I shouldnt support AA or buy items from a store that sell alcoholic beverages.

I believe the Iraq war is wrong, yet I support the troops. Obviously one can see where Im going with this...

I believe gays should have the same rights as every other tax-paying citizen that is my firm belief based off of my faith, I don't have to agree with a person to believe they deserve justice and fair dealing.

I guess thats just a Muslim thing....

[Jill Monroe]

You completely missed the point which is obvious by your post, and spinned this diaglogue to completely different agenda. Personally, I could care less how you feel about my religion or religion in general for that matter. It is what it is. There are those that use their understanding of their beliefs to hate and there are others that use their beliefs to care. In this issue as it relates to black people it appears that while both groups are in disagreement to how gays should be treated, both also agree that it is inconsistant from what their beliefs teach them.

No one especially me ever stated that I/we care if it mattered how we felt about anyones lifestyle. This thread was about a problem in the black community and how to best address it using the information we do know combined with personal experience.

Furthermore, it obviously matters what black people feel about the gay lifestyle hence the reason of the article in the first place. Instead of just ranting, try to read what is written and try to understand. It does matter to black people and there is no need to point out who is human and who is not, another point of the pro-gay article that I posted.

Wrap your mind around that for a second!


YOU were the one who brought religion into it when you said "from a religious perspective" .

when people start using "religion" as an excuse for endorsing/condeming something you SHOULD expect others to express their displeasure with it. I might add that is the reason why CHRISTIANS get such a bad rap because they seem to think they can legislate the moral compass of society with THEIR "religious perspective".

I've seen as well how damaging religion can be...and people in the black community tend to use it to their advantage when it suits them. I know PLENTY of black folks who will use "god", the bible/quoran (spellling?) or whatever else to condemn the evil of "gay" and yet these same people smoke, drink, have premarital sex, lie, swear, steal and whatever else. HYPOCRITICAL MUCH?

thats something that can be seen in ALL communities and not just black. WHY is it such a problem in the black community? i dont know..im not black so i couldnt tell you from that perspective BUT i have seen it MORE in the black community than anywhere else. is it any WONDER that the "D/L" syndrome is so prevelant among gay black men and not as much in other races? gay black men (and even some women) have become AFRAID to even acknowledge to THEMSELVES who they are because of the deep seated homophobia that is all around them and hearing people use RELIGION as an excuse for why "they dont agree"....well I TOO would say something about that.

[Osiris]

Everyone needs to breath for a second. The reason I brought "religion" into the "discussion" is to highlight the problem indepth. In order to provide a solution one must analyze the problem thouroghly. It is impossible for any serious study or debate to talk about black people and their position on a myriad of issues without talking about religion as every study, poll, and historical analysis will point out the vital role religion plays in the black community.

While it may be a big pill for many to swallow outside the black community the truth is that while many so-called "religious" people are open hypocrits they still consider religion important in their lives.

So in order to solve a problem, notice I used the word "problem" in the black community, it will have to be solved within the context of religion and religious debate.

I didnt make it this way, but this is the reality in which we live.

[DonDaddyD]

I was trying to edit my post before you replied Osiris:

As a Black Man growing up in a non religious background, I can safely say that the vast majority (a good 90%+) have some negative view about homosexuality and yet are not religious. - Oh the vast majority of Black People may claim church throughout all of London but only a minority of them can truly ever be considered religous.- So my perspective on this matter is not a religous thing mainly a black thing.

I think personally where you have said this:

Osiris wrote:
No one especially me ever stated that I/we care if it mattered how we felt about anyones lifestyle. This thread was about a problem in the black community and how to best address it using the information we do know combined with personal experience.

The solution can be found by realising and accepting this:

Guardian wrote:
how can you claim to speak against homophobia but then back pedal and say you dont agree with people for being who they are ...

Most black people I know talking on the subject of Homosexuality claim not to have a problem with it, yet cannot accept it. I argue that not being able to accept or agree with it is to have a problem. And that is the root of the mass homophobia running through black culture.

If they understood it, if they agreed that is wasn't a negative thing there would be no problem with it.

*I hope that makes sense*


Osiris wrote:
To say that because one disagrees with an action or belief helps perpetuate a negative reaction is wrong.

Your missing the point and I wish you would wrap your mind around it...lol

It is the way the people disagree with it that is the problem, it is the way they view the problem. If this was a mere matter of ethical leanings then yes it wouldn't be an issue. However when a person looks at Homosexuality as simply not natural and advocates the songs promoting the shooting of said Gay's (Buju Banton) or burning them (TOK) then I would say that their deep rooted disagreeing with homosexuality is very much the issue and does serve to perpetuate a negative reaction.

If Black people agreed with and accepted that Homosexuality wasn't a negative thing would such homophobic songs be made?

So I believe disagreeing with it is very much the problem. And I don't think religion has anything to do with that anymore. Nor do I feel through religion can a solution be found.

*I hope that makes more sense*

[Osiris]

I explained how I can support justice without having to agree with the actions of the one seeking justice. Justice is a principle and as they say blind.

Case in point, I support the Palenstinian cause, but not the actions of agression they take.

Are you suggesting that since I dont agree with suicide bombing that I can't agree with their plight for justice?

Lastly, I don't see how I can be part of the problem because I realize a personal truth that I don't have to think homosexual is right to understand that as human beings and tax paying citizens they deserve the same rights as every human being and every other tax paying citizen.

From a non-religious perspective, one can go back and study homophobia in black culture and see that even as far back as Africa even the animist and tribal customs promoted this way of thinking and its been this way for centuries.

All in all whether you blame monotheism or polytheism, religion has had a major influence in our cultural "awareness" or lack there of, both directly and indirectly as atheism is a rarity statistically in the black community. Even if people werent "religious" Grandma was and passed on her moral "code" to her children, oftentimes as you know being black, we tend to follow traditions and beliefs that we don't even know where they originate, but thats how it is in our family.

Which is why I stand by the opinion that to solve any black issue, one has to evalute the religious influence.

[DonDaddyD]

What I'm saying though is that the problem is with the black people who cannot seperate not agreeing with and not accepting homosexuality and letting people be.

Some people disagree with it and simply cannot accept anyone who is gay. Those are the people that sink into an ignorant homophobia.

My arguement is that by getting people to even understand the why people are (because in the end the problem is they don't know the why they are) we can find a solution to the homophia that is plaguing black culture.

Obviously it is possible to support a cause and dispute the actions. But how much wieght does your words carry when you're saying 'I don't mind gay people, but I disagree with homosexuality'.

At the same time though isn't the problem, the not being able to accept, understand and agreeing with homosexuality? If you don't agree with it how can you claim to be part of any solution? Even though admittingly you may not be adding to the problem.

The problem of with homophobia in black people is because they don't agree with it, many haven't spent the time to understand it and are vocal about not agreeing with the sexuality. Within that the negativity is born and perpetuated.

That said I think it is blind to say that religion is the root to the solution now. Maybe in the World you percieve because religion has been a strong part of your upbringing. But as a black man who isn't religious how is your dogma going to reach me?

[Osiris]

No don't get me wrong, Im don't feel compelled to explain myself, but when talking about an issue as big as this, its best to fully explain yourself because you never know who is reading, and all it takes is one person to make a difference. I wanted to push my position to show that there are many ways to attack this problem and to show the diversity in opinions that currently exist.

As far as how much weight my position carries, I think that is subjective to the person evaluating the position. I prefer to let my actions do the talking.

Thanks for a spirited discussion.

[Rampage]

Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here. Why should anyone in the Black community even be concerned one way or another? Or have to apologize for the ignorance of a rapper here or a reggae artist there? Many of their fans don't care about that stuff, I would imagine that some fans aren't even aware of the homophobic lyrics. In addition, people see prejudice every day. If you constantly confronted that or did not deal with a person perceived to have a prejudice of some sort, you could easily isolate yourself. Lastly Osiris, how is this issue much different from the issue of terrorism and radical Islam? In that thread you seemed to say that non-radical Muslims had no responsibility or role in terms of dealing with radicals yet here you sound a clarion call for all Blacks to deal with this issue. Is that a consistent view?
Just some points I saw while reading this...

[Osiris]

Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here. Why should anyone in the Black community even be concerned one way or another? Or have to apologize for the ignorance of a rapper here or a reggae artist there? Many of their fans don't care about that stuff, I would imagine that some fans aren't even aware of the homophobic lyrics. In addition, people see prejudice every day. If you constantly confronted that or did not deal with a person perceived to have a prejudice of some sort, you could easily isolate yourself. Lastly Osiris, how is this issue much different from the issue of terrorism and radical Islam? In that thread you seemed to say that non-radical Muslims had no responsibility or role in terms of dealing with radicals yet here you sound a clarion call for all Blacks to deal with this issue. Is that a consistent view?
Just some points I saw while reading this...

Good questions:)

Black people should care, primarily because as a community we are still at the very bottom of all positive statistics(wealth, health, etc.) and the highest in all negative statistics(crime, unemployment, etc.). Anything that helps to further stagnate our progress is worthy of a challenge and a postitive alternative to fix these issues.

I never advocated an apology, because apologies without action is futile. This is about Justice to me. Its not limited to the black community either. It just so happens that our community tends to be the most homophobic and that was the thesis of this article, but in general terms homophobia is wicked and doesnt promote true and equitable dealings among diverse people.

As far as the Islamic discussion goes, I never said that Muslims had no responsibility, I was saying that we shouldnt be blamed for their actions or be thought to have to apologize. As Muslims its our duty to educate and inform to ensure that the issues are addressed and prevented. Many Muslims currently do this and their are many Muslim organizations that constantly do this.

My opinions are consistent, because Im not calling for black people as a whole to apologize for homophobia nor blaming black people as a whole. Im addressing an issue thats in our community and needs to be resolved. The same as in the Islamic community.

I don't feel that those who are not a part of the problem should be held responsible or feel apologetic for the actions of others. However, we do have the individual responsibility to be productive to the human family.

[DonDaddyD]

Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here. Why should anyone in the Black community even be concerned one way or another? Or have to apologize for the ignorance of a rapper here or a reggae artist there? Many of their fans don't care about that stuff,

I don't know about you but part of my cultural awarness is the acknowledgement that black people culturally are homophobic. Given that Music is such a powerful medium for the voice of black culture I do care what is being said and expressed.

I would imagine that some fans aren't even aware of the homophobic lyrics.

I think that is hard to say when the entire song; Boom bye bye by Buju Banton, was all about shooting Gay people. And Chi Chi Man by TOK was all about burning Gay people. And both songs ruled the British Summer time seperated by a decade. I'd go as far as to say subconciously those two songs fed hate to two different generations, because phrases in the songs are regularly used to express hatered against gays.


In addition, people see prejudice every day. If you constantly confronted that or did not deal with a person perceived to have a prejudice of some sort, you could easily isolate yourself.

The thing is not confronting it also isolates people as has been expressed by Black Gay people.

[ZorCrow]

Good Thoughts,

Osiris

Your simple formula that religious = homophobia is completely in error.
Just because Homosexuality is a sin in the Christian and Islamic religions doesn't mean that folks who follow those faiths are homophobic. There is a big difference in condemning evil behavior and than enforcing violence and hatred against people.

Also, I like the fact that our community has not been poisoned by the lies of people who seek to change the moral fabric and strength of our society through their ills. This embrace of radical feminism, homosexuality and sexual immoralties have done nothing but continue to destroy our society and bring American closer to ruin.

AS for the "down low" brothers, many of those guys give off homosexual vibes way in advance and folks just ignore it. It reminds me of the folks who are shocked that, "Clay Aiken might be gay." I think we have to be honest, their are a lot of homosexuals in our community and a lot of guys are trying to have their cake and eat it too and all they are doing is spreading AIDS amongst our people and killing off our population.

Their is a genocide going on against blacks particularly black males,
we are told to be thugs which leads to prison aka social death or to the grave, we are told to be players which tends to make us horrible fathers and destroy family structures, gaurenteeing the repeating of these negative actions amongst future generations, and finally we are pushed with the faulty notions of Liberals in the Democratic party that we must accept behaviors that put us more at risk.

You guys can say all you want, but at the end of the day it's my black brothers that are dying and it's my relatives I am having to bury.
Homosexuality has got to stop and so does this "do what you like" poison that has infected our people.

[Jill Monroe]

Also, I like the fact that our community has not been poisoned by the lies of people who seek to change the moral fabric and strength of our society through their ills. This embrace of radical feminism, homosexuality and sexual immoralties have done nothing but continue to destroy our society and bring American closer to ruin.

EXCUSE ME? "Radical Feminism continues to destroy our society?" what the hell kind of shit is that to say? FIRST of all...It AMAZES me that as part of a minority group YOURSELF that you could CONDEMN the movement of WOMEN (ALSO a minority group) to try to assert their rights and equality. We are NOT subserviant to men NOR were we meant to be and we do NOT have to be content with what men ALLOW us to have. 40 years of feminism and the fight for women's rights has allowed us to see ourselves in levels of govenment that would have been UNDREAMED OF decades prior; we won the BASIC right to VOTE, we won the right to EQUAL PAY in the work place for doing the same jobs as a MAN when we are JUST AS QUALIFIED...etc.

More importantly, women have shown that we are capable of doing anything that a man can do or at least TRYING and that we do NOT have to 'sit back' or 'be seen and not heard' just because some ARCHAIC , chauvanistic beliefs that are perpetuated by this patriarchal society still persist today. RELIGION IS OFTEN used to justify the subjugation of women....so if its "radical" to fight against these archaic perceptions of women that YOU seem to hold so dear...then so be it.

But i RESENT the fact that you would imply women fighting for their rights and equal standing in this woefully male dominated society is what is DEGRADING america :rolleyes:


Homosexuality has got to stop and so does this "do what you like" poison that has infected our people.

Homosexuality has been around A HELL OF A LOT LONGER than many RELIGIONS Zorcrow. this wasnt a 20th century invention...nor is it a disease or mental defect. SEXUALITY is but ONE part of who a person is. how can you expect someone to STOP being who they are just because YOU dont like it?

[Osiris]

Zorcrow....or shall I say....awww nevermind, I don't see how you got out of my "speech" religious=homophobia.

Im very "religious" and Im not homophobic. I was telling the plain truth that many blacks will attest to that, because our community is overwhelmingly "religious" that is one of the major root causes of our extreme homophobia.

There is not one religion or cultural idea that blacks as a community embrace that isnt against homosexuality. The ones that embrace these religions and ideas, which I am a part of, have to make the choice to be homophobic or not. The way the messages that we listen to are given, oftentimes we arent given much leg room, therefore its up to the individual to make a descision as to how to deal with people with whom they are at variance with.

Case in point: In Islam, homosexual behavior is called an abomination and Christians are oftentimes compared to Pagans, however, we are also taught in the very same book that we should deal with people different than us in fair in equitable terms, and let Allah alone judge on the day of judgement.

That is why I can say fundamentally I don't agree with homosexuality, but I agree that homosexuals deserve justice just like every other American and have the freedom to live as they choose to.

I don't have to make everyone a Muslim for the Quran teaches that there should be no compulsion in religion, but I do have to treat everyone that is not Muslim with honor and dignity.

[DonDaddyD]

What confuses me and slightly frustrates me to be honest is that a topic of homophobia found in songs associated with black culture, that obviously highlights the rampant homophobia found in black culture cannot be discussed past the point of religious views.

In my meagre twenty five years of life I’ve learnt that sum total of black culture and the black identity was not and is not purely rooted in any which religion. Yes religion has been a feature within the cultural growth of black people yet Black people are not synonymous with religion. Looking through this topic I’ve come to query when and how this became all about religion and how can religion be the solution when clearly an educating of minds with science and providing a more lenient, accepting and mature view of varying societies is needed.

Moreover I think it is naïve to claim that believing that homosexuality is a sin isn’t part of the problem. Sure, some are able to leave people alone to live their lives as they see fit. But thinking it is a sin, teaching it is a sin without properly educating the why people are and what it is, is what has seen rampant homophobia plague my race. Homophobia is born out of a lack of understanding. (As I have learnt).

A sin is a “negative thing” and born out of that are negative reactions too the sin or too the people who commit said sin. It is speaking out against that perceived negativity that has seen people feel justified to sing the songs that was the initial catalyst of this topic - Yes some religions teach the multi-sided argument; "that though people may not follow the teachings, it is still possible to accept them as people". Yet for every person that can do that there is going to be some who cannot accept the differences that seperate people and feel justified to express there feelings against the things they cannot accept. - By teaching people Homosexuality isn’t a sin, that it isn’t a negative thing, is the only real, complete and total way that will eliminate the negative view that the Black race has of Homosexuality.

But you guys will disagree with that because it goes against your religion and you’re not going to suddenly believe religious teachings that homosexuality is ok. You’ll always believe it is negative, a sin, ‘not right’ and that is why I say you are part of the problem because change is something you’re not willing to do. And since religion is so unmoving, I feel that it isn’t the route to take in order to educate people that homosexuality isn’t a negative thing.

[Osiris]

What confuses me and slightly frustrates me to be honest is that a topic of homophobia found in songs associated with black culture, that obviously highlights the rampant homophobia found in black culture cannot be discussed past the point of religious views.

In my meagre twenty five years of life I’ve learnt that sum total of black culture and the black identity was not and is not purely rooted in any which religion. Yes religion has been a feature within the cultural growth of black people yet Black people are not synonymous with religion. Looking through this topic I’ve come to query when and how this became all about religion and how can religion be the solution when clearly an educating of minds with science and providing a more lenient, accepting and mature view of varying societies is needed.

Moreover I think it is naïve to claim that believing that homosexuality is a sin isn’t part of the problem. Sure, some are able to leave people alone to live their lives as they see fit. But thinking it is a sin, teaching it is a sin without properly educating the why people are and what it is, is what has seen rampant homophobia plague my race. Homophobia is born out of a lack of understanding. (As I have learnt).

A sin is a “negative thing” and born out of that are negative reactions too the sin or too the people who commit said sin. It is speaking out against that perceived negativity that has seen people feel justified to sing the songs that was the initial catalyst of this topic - Yes some religions teach the multi-sided argument; "that though people may not follow the teachings, it is still possible to accept them as people". Yet for every person that can do that there is going to be some who cannot accept the differences that seperate people and feel justified to express there feelings against the things they cannot accept. - By teaching people Homosexuality isn’t a sin, that it isn’t a negative thing, is the only real, complete and total way that will eliminate the negative view that the Black race has of Homosexuality.

But you guys will disagree with that because it goes against your religion and you’re not going to suddenly believe religious teachings that homosexuality is ok. You’ll always believe it is negative, a sin, ‘not right’ and that is why I say you are part of the problem because change is something you’re not willing to do. And since religion is so unmoving, I feel that it isn’t the route to take in order to educate people that homosexuality isn’t a negative thing.

What you fail to realize is that blacks that don't consider religion important or don't believe in religion are in the minority. Hence the poll statistics I sited earlier in this discussion.

Secondly, you assume that by saying science and education can fix anything is the contrary to religion. That is a purely atheistic position, because while you may broadstroke religion as backward, you might want to go see that Islam pioneered many of the sciences, mathematics, and medical practices that are so "advanced" The Quran was teaching evolution, atoms, birth, etc. before these terms were even known in the West. But thats another discussion.

Its one thing to say that calling something a sin is a bad thing and part of the problem, and yes a sin is a bad thing, but WHY is it considered a sin is the real question. In Islam, we actually explain why we believe such, and if one is of a different position that is fine. But don't assume that because other religions just believe its a sin because its in their book, that all religions specifically Islam works that way.

For most Muslims including myself, It is a sin because of the reasoning of the Quran on the subject, not just God said no. Muslims are told to be objective and use reasoning to come to their conclusion. So before you attack a belief, it may make more sense to ask why first.

The bottom line is this:

The majority of Blacks something like 80+% have a religious affiliation. If one wants to tackle ANY problem in the black community it would make more sense to "attack" the common occurance.

Addressing a minority in a minority is not going to help change the majority opinion within that minority.

Don't even believe for one minute you are going to get the majority of blacks to believe that their scriptures are wrong on this issue.

Its best to work within those scriptures to find solutions.

[DonDaddyD]

What you fail to realize is that blacks that don't consider religion important or don't believe in religion are in the minority. Hence the poll statistics I sited earlier in this discussion.

That statistic did it cover all blacks? By all blacks I mean outside your Country. You fail to realise that my perspective and horizon is completely different from yours. You shouldn't assume that all Blacks will share the view or the views spinning out of your country. What connects us is that we are black and not the fact that we are all mostly religous.

Even my perspective of what makes a person religious and believing in religion is likely to be different from yours. So please when discussing with me do care to hold in mind that the World in which I live is completely different from yours.


Secondly, you assume that by saying science and education can fix anything is the contrary to religion. That is a purely atheistic position, because while you may broadstroke religion as backward, you might want to go see that Islam pioneered many of the sciences, mathematics, and medical practices that are so "advanced" The Quran was teaching evolution, atoms, birth, etc. before these terms were even known in the West. But thats another discussion.

No this above all is very much the discussion, you intially wanted to highlight the problem and a probable solution.

Religion teaches a lack of understanding and intollerance to what homosexuality is, in my lifetime I do not know of one mainstream religion practiced now that supports homosexuality, much rather promoting it as a negative thing.

By learning what it is, is the only way to provide a solution. A solution that religion ultimately cannot and will not provide and a medium of practices can. But then in the end that is just my opinion based on society against yours.


In Islam, we actually explain why we believe such, and if one is of a different position that is fine. But don't assume that because other religions just believe its a sin because its in their book, that all religions specifically Islam works that way. For most Muslims including myself, It is a sin because of the reasoning of the Quran on the subject, not just God said no. Muslims are told to be objective and use reasoning to come to their conclusion. So before you attack a belief, it may make more sense to ask why first.

I'm not as short sighted as you think Osiris, OBVIOUSLY there are reasons WHY a religion would call a sin a sin. But ultimately a sin is a sin and thus a negative thing. Did it ever occur to you that in this instance I don't believe that Homosexuality is a negative thing or a sin? For me and my thoughts on the matter elminating the negativity surrounding the problem would be the only solution, but given that people with religious views tend not to budge, I feel that the solution cannot be found within religion.

Alright, I didn't come here to have an arguement today, and I've been addressed in far to patronizing a manner when I never addressed you so directly so I'll post my thoughts and then you can reply, ignore, whatever. I'm done.

Those Hip Hop songs, the vast majority of the ragga and reggae songs do not contain lyrics about God advocating the singers hate for homosexuals. It is a personal view born out of social upbringing. Many of those singers IF they are religious have varying religions and it would be too much to try to work through every scripture of every possible religion to try and change the view of gay people throughout Black culture.

It is however possible to reach the entirity of Black Culture and not just in AMERICA through other more unifying mediums.

Edit:- You know quite frankly I'm vexed, I've come back to look at this thread and how I've been spoken to and I'm utterly pissed off! This thread was all about discussing solutions and the possible issues surrounding black culture and its homophobia. So I've come into this thread as a Black British man firstly and a non-religious person secondly. I've posted my thoughts that don't dance around religon (as they naturally wouldn't) and I'm spoken to with ridicule like I have no knowledge on the context, I've had assumptions of what I know thrown my way and been told I shouldn't assume this or I don't realise that like I'm some ill-read teenager. If your so sure of the solution, if your so sure that religion will provide all answers and won't allow others their thoughts why post the damn subject in the first place?

And normally I would just let this slide, walk away and drink a can of beer but considering I tried hard to post my views in the most general fashion I could in order not to appear to single out any one religion, considering the ridicule in the reply I just got I simply couldn't just let it go. And that is why I have a general disdain for religion and look upon it as a warped concept because most religous people cannot accept a view outside of their own and when questioned instead of educating and providing their perspective respectively they become dismissive and patronizing in a desperate attempt to cling to what they believe so desperately.

[ZorCrow]

Wow, as this thread proves

To the Athiest/Agnostic Religion is always the problem, therefore making a relgion out of athiesm and agnosticism.

Secondly as for Binder's incorrect comments.

Women and men are equal but not parallel. Men are physically superior to women, we are stronger than you and we more physically capabale than you. However, women and men are both unique and their roles are unique in our society. Radical feminism has changed the roles of women and men in our society, mainly for the negative.

Men are made men for a reason and men are the lead in the marriage in the family for a reason, men must lead by example and by love. Wives must submit to their husbands and husbands most love and respect their wives. But the man is the lead and that is something lost in radical feminism.

Does that mean that women can't be preachers or attorneys or even run major corporations? Nope, by far women can, and women should. But as for relationships and family man is the head, but the woman a strong neck.

I am a minority and women are a minority but that doesn't mean we have to agree. That twisted logic is prominetly in politics. We must be alike . . Not true Blacks and Hispanics don't always get along because we have different goals and issues in our ethnic groups.

I think Osiris has a great view coming from Islam, but Islam itself many nations slaughter and abuse homosexuals and as for no compulsian in religion, many Islamic nations ban other religions so therefore you are forced to adopt Islam. I find the practices of Islam far more reaching than his statements.
It is also good to see his understand of butchering scriptures, as he stated Christianity like Islam does explain WHY sins are sins. But butchering the scripture to adopt sin as many churches have done to their own shame is not the answer nor correct.

I like the fact that our community doesn't go with the status quo, I like the fact that we aren't letting this out of control
hedonistic culture pollute us any worse than it has. We do have homosexuality issues we have to deal with along with crime, fornication , and econmical issues.

Also, our faith has been around from the beginning in fact,
Christanity teaches before time GOD chose us (Romans chapter 8) so our "religion" was around far before homosexuality and even creation.

Hip hop as a lot worse issues such as violence, beefing, rejection of vaules that tend to life and success and abuse of women and human beings.

[Jill Monroe]

:eek:

allright..that's it. I am SO done with this thread. FUCK THIS ARCHAIC, CHAUVANIST MENTALITY. I have NOTHING more to say on this matter except to say...if i wasnt ALREADY "widowed"....then i sure as hell WOULD be right now because if this is how MEN in MY generation think...then Ill be DAMNED If im going to compromise myself by dealing with such assholes.


first of all: Osiris...your holier than thou attitude really betrays you. this is the SECOND thread in which you have implied (whether you realize it or not) that basically ISLAM beliefs are best..and anything else is garbage and all non muslims (aka "western society) are infidles. Using religious precepts as an excuse to condemn (whether you want to call it that or not...telling someone you dont approve of who they are IS a form of condemnation) a person simply for being something YOU DONT UNDERSTAND is NOT FAIR nor is it RIGHT.

JESUS HIMSELF hung out with the damn leppers and prostitutes..he CRITICIZED the Pharisees for constantly blustering on and on about "what christian doctorine doesnt condone" etc etc. Jesus REACHED OUT and HELPED these people..he didnt condemn them NOR did he punctuate his assistance with "i dont approve of your lifestyle BUT ill help you anyway".

and as for YOU Zorcrow: HOW FUCKING DARE YOU come to a board FILLED with women and SPEW this chauvanist nonsense!? :eek:

this is NOT the 1950's..this is the 21rst fucking century. MANY households in america today are HEADED BY WOMEN...and they do JUST FINE raising their families on their own. and BELIEVE ME honey...NOT ALL MEN are "physically superior" to women..and for you to rest on that laurel SHOWS just how arrogant you are as you revel in your false sense of "male superiority"....i know PLENTY of women who could take YOU down..and dont think that you're the only one with "physical combat training". I KNOW what you look like sweetie...;)


Women dont have to "submit" to ANY damn body...we CHOOSE to share our lives with our husbands/boyfriends..but we are in NO WAY REQUIRED to "submit" to ANY man. Ultimately..our lives are OUR OWN and WE decide our fate.


and as for APPLAUDING homophobia and saying "you like that black people dont go with the status quo?" YOU REMEMBER that if someone in your family or a friend YOU care about turns out to be GAY and is assaulted by OTHER black people in his/her community and see how you feel about it THEN.

a WHITE person who is sympathetic to the fucking NAZIS could easily say "I like the fact that the KLAN goes against the status quo" when it comes to spewing racism and bigotry.....i bet you'd have something to say about THAT.

[ZorCrow]

allright..that's it. I am SO done with this thread. F*** THIS ARCHAIC, CHAUVANIST MENTALITY. I have NOTHING more to say on this matter except to say...if i wasnt ALREADY "widowed"....then i sure as hell WOULD be right now because if this is how MEN in MY generation think...then Ill be DAMNED If im going to compromise myself by dealing with such ***holes.

I'd marry you in a heartbeat my blonde angel . .. even though we agree on nothing, you know I respect you and your opinions.

:shrug:

[sinosleep]

I had a bunch of things that I had copied and pasted onto notepad that I was going to quote and reply to individually but that would just be a waste of time and the reply would be way to big some I’m just going to reply to everything I read as a whole instead of singling people out. One of the big things that I noticed is that several people mentioned that a.) religion is part of the problem because it condemns homosexuality b.) religion is what kills people and spreads ignorance and hate.

One thing about religion that people seem to miss is that at least in Christianity (I’m not particularly well versed in other religions but my mother is a Pentecostal pastor and we’ve gone to church all our lives so I know that religion VERY well) is USED to kill people and spread ignorance. Christianity at least, in and of itself, does NOT condone action against sinner. It preaches of tolerance, acceptance, and forgiveness. At least once the New Testament rolls along. The Old Testament is all about stoning and such but what ever.

I think people are FAR to quick to place the blame on religion and not on the WIELDER of said religion.

I also don’t understand what it is exactly that some of you want people to do in regards to religion. It’s been said in this thread that without a TOTAL acceptance of homosexuality progress can’t be made. So what would you have all those people that have religious beliefs do? You want them to abandon their religion because some people are too damned ignorant to separate their religious beliefs from their social/political views? That’s NOT the religion’s problem, that’s the PERSON’S problem. That’s just people using religion as the scapegoat for all our problems as has become the status quo. I believe in Christianity, so that means I believe homosexuality is wrong. Does that effect my world view on homosexuals at all? NOT ONE DAMNED BIT! I also believe in everything else that the bible speaks out against and it hasn’t stopped me from having pre-marital sex, stealing, doing drugs, not going to church with any kind of regularity, or anything else I do that is also condemned by scripture. So if it has no effect on my personal life why would it have any on my view of the world? Are there people that are hypocrites and use religion to lash out at gays? Yes. Is it justified by that religion? No! And since it’s not where the hell do you people get off trying to blame the religion when it is THE PEOPLE following it that are in the wrong?

I’m not saying that it’s the solution to the problem, merely stating that it’s this evil empire that you guys make it out to be.

At the end of the day what do I think about the whole thing? I think it all depends on how you persecute everything else said through lyrics in music. If it’s a ok for Dead Prez to CONSTANTLY talk about how much they hate white people, why can’t Eminem talk about how much he hates gays? The hypocrisy has to end and that’s when you’ll get your answer. If it’s ok to rap about how much you hate one section of society then it has to be ok to talk about any other section in the same light. It’s the same thing as the old ass Black Entertainment Television argument. You don’t think there would be a huge outcry if White Entertainment Television came out? Of course there would be and it would be bullshit. Frankly I think minorities get by on that kind of crap entirely too much. I think if you’re going to crack down on hate, crack down on ALL hate. And I’m Hispanic by the way, also a minority.

[ZorCrow]

Sinsosleep

I don't agree with everything you said in your posting, but you hit some things right on the head. I however, am committed to living by the scriptures.
The thing you pointed out is so true, we must elimnate ALL HATE.

Hating white people is not right, as members of this board can tell youthey have been victims of prejudice because they are white. I have been mocked and called a sell out because of my affinity for BINDER and certain white, latin and asian women. Yet and still I prefer black women (i'm black) over all.

Folks see what they want to see, the hate they want to see. I often have said of this website, that for SOME members it's okay to bash the bible, Christanity, and those who are moderate to consevative, but the moment I say that Allah is not the GOD of the bible and that he's a tribal moon god (which he is) folks want to call me intolerant.

I think folks have to realize tolerance doesn't mean running over people of faith or people without faith, tolerance means even though I don't agree with you we still work together for what's right.

good post . .

[Rampage]

I have a huge problem with the criticism of Black Entertainment Television. BET was established mainly beacuase all of the channels were already White Entertaionment Television. Hell, many Black artists could not even get their videos on MTV. BET filled a need and still does to this day. The problem when people call separate Black stuff racist is that they don't take into account why it was created and why it exists to this day.
As for the debate concerning homosexuality and Black culture, I have two observations:
1) To simply label Blacks as homophobic is terrible and unfair. Across the spectrum of race and religion lies intolerance of homosexuals. Do you think that Buju Banton is the only artist with anti-gay lyrics? Or that ONLY Black artists have anti-gay lyrics? Thats bullshit. In fact, I believe that homophobia is not really any worse in the Black culture than anywhere else, having personally seen homophobes in all races/religions.
2) I know for a fact that many people who dance to and enjoy reggae music do so for the melodies and beat rather than the lyrics. The truth is hat many listeners d not pay attention to what is said. That's why there are so many popular lyricists with weak skills...

[Osiris]

My, My, My......

I don't know where to start,

Zorcrow I told you on the other board and I will tell you on this board, your "moon god" comment is not intolerant, it just means your an idiot.

Moving right along....

DonDaddyD, Certainly my statistics were focused around American Blacks, but a broader look at the statistics, I do work for Govt agencies that study such things, one will quickly see that when compared to other groups, those of African descent acrosss the planet have a greater affinity towards religion than other groups. The majority of blacks in America are Christian(for now don't blame me blame the FBI), while blacks in North Africa are Muslim, followed by Animists, and a mix of "other" religions in the Carribean, etc. The major point is even the rappers predominately claim some form of Christianity or Islam. This is not about religious practice, but more so affiliation.

This is how Bush got over in the election. Rove knew that people regardless of practice, tend to go with tradition. While these same blacks may not have been practicing Christians and may be open hypocrits, at the same time their core beliefs as to what their respective religions tell them remained in tact.

Which Is why I said to look toward religion. It is the common bond in our community always has been that way all the way back to ancient Kemet. The majority of our respective religions do teach that homosexuality is a sin. Its not the only sin BTW.

The point is your going to have radicals in every religion, if religion can produce both tolerance and intolerance, you should support the tolerant side in order to overcome the other. If both can currently coexist, then it means one can go away.

As far as Islam being the best way of life: It is. Islam means submission, there isnt one religion, theory, or craft that doesnt teach the best way in life is to submit. Its the object or purpose of submission that is where we vary, Most of you are already "Muslim" those who submit, and don't even realize it, including you Spellbinder.

Does that make anyone hollier than thou, absolutely not, because all are responsible for themselves. No sin is greater than another and we should embrace all(which is what I have been trying to say), however while we may be reminded of Jesus(PBUH) and his dealings with "sinners" remember that you can come to Jesus(PBUH) anyway you are, but your not supposed to stay that way.

So its false to accept the notion that while Jesus(PBUH) would have welcomed homosexuals in the fold that he would let them stay that way.

But I digress, this article that we are debating is not about whether homosexuality is a sin or not(we can leave that for another debate), or homophobia throughout the world, this article focuses primarily on the black community and our position on homosexuality and the roots there of.

Overall, our stigmas about homosexuality is a direct result of our cultural ideas as to what men and women should be and how they should behave. Much of which comes from our religious beliefs that stem back to ancient times before we knew the names of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. Our cultural "awareness" is by product of our cultural situtation, and our situation was molded by religion one way or the other both positively and negatively.

So for those that want to paint this atheistic view of the black community, even worldwide, I would suggest you take a greater look at black history and you will find that not one movement, event, or idea formulated or action upon in our history especially in America was done without the influence of religion or religious beliefs.

Being that this is the truth how can a minority posistion in a minority influence the majority posistion within a minority?

Homes are normally cleaned from the inside out.

[Harbinger]

okay...WHY post this article to BEGIN WITH if basically you're saying that there's nothing that can be done about the problem?

secondly, if you think that "Islam" is best..then YOU and others like yourself are the ones who fan the flames of prejudice against muslims....just like CHRISTIANS who run around beating people over the head with THEIR religion and the bible and then they wonder way there's an "anti christian" bias.

If you think Islam is good for YOU then fine but dont tell me some arrogant bullshit about it being the "best religion on the planet" because that isnt going to impress me, all its going to do is make me think you and others like you are arrogant and think your religion makes you superior.

you basically spend your time talking DOWN to people in this thread and saying that "homophobia" is wrong BUT you condone religious teachings that RATIONALIZE the mistreatment, scrutiny and ostrasizing of gay people....WHICH IS IT?

[Osiris]

okay...WHY post this article to BEGIN WITH if basically you're saying that there's nothing that can be done about the problem?

secondly, if you think that "Islam" is best..then YOU and others like yourself are the ones who fan the flames of prejudice against muslims....just like CHRISTIANS who run around beating people over the head with THEIR religion and the bible and then they wonder way there's an "anti christian" bias.

If you think Islam is good for YOU then fine but dont tell me some arrogant bullshit about it being the "best religion on the planet" because that isnt going to impress me, all its going to do is make me think you and others like you are arrogant and think your religion makes you superior.

you basically spend your time talking DOWN to people in this thread and saying that "homophobia" is wrong BUT you condone religious teachings that RATIONALIZE the mistreatment, scrutiny and ostrasizing of gay people....WHICH IS IT?

Are you blind? Sometimes its best to read with rationale rather than emotion.

I never said the problem couldnt be dealt with, on the contrary I suggested a solution and if you have been reading DonDaddyD posted an alternate solution and we have been debation SOLUTIONS, obviously if I believe in a solution than I believe the problem can be fixed.

Also I said "submission" is the best, even Wicca teaches that, which by the way I have first hand experience, hence my comment that most are already "Muslims" but don't know it yet. Its a play on words, "submission" in the Arabic language means "Islam".

Now if you don't believe that whatever you believe teaches you to submit, than I guess we truly have a point of contention, but I would love to see what religion or way of life doesnt teach submission, even Atheism teaches submission.

I never condoned ANY religious teaching that rationalizes the mistreatment of gays, in fact I don't know of any that do. What I stood by was my belief as is the same for the other 1.2 Billion Muslims, 2 Billion Chrisitians, and 14 Million Jews that Homosexuality among other things are considered a sin in our respective religions.

How one acts out the treatment of the "sinful" whether Murderers, Adulterers, Liars, theives, homosexuals, etc. Is the point of contention. I believe that those who live or believe contrary, which is what the root of the English word "sin" means, should be treated fairly and equitably, no matter what.

I do not believe that those who have a different belief or lifestyle than myself should be treated unfairly or harmed in anyway. I have repeated this many times in this thread and I don't stand on this solely as a personal opinion, but also as an opinion adopted from my scripture: the Quran.

You should read what is written, not what you think is written.

[Harbinger]

Osiris, you are an ASS. plain and simple.

how DARE you post like that to me! I am not your fucking child NOR am i some uneducated rabble who needs to be enlightened by some pharisee like dickhead who thinks HIS way is the only way.

I saw what you posted and quite frankly, i feel you're just another double talker. you take this (as you do just about every other damn thread you make) as an opportunity to tout Islam. THIS ISN'T an ISLAMIC BOARD nor is it a board about RELIGION and it would be nice if you could debate without being so RUDE and CONDESCENDING in your every sentence.

I saw what you wrote to DDD and quite frankly, I wouldnt have been surprised if he had snapped on you himself for the way you dismissed what he said and continued to tout YOUR solution as the only solution.

I dont give a damn what "islam" means in arabic. it's not what i believe in or will i EVER subscribe to it so dont tell me that your way is the only way because it ISNT.

i'm done with this thread.

[Osiris]

Wow....I don't know where to begin, so I will start with the truth.

I apologize if I offended anyone, it was never my intention to come off in some arrogant position. Maybe my presentation is off, but I try to present my position in the most knowledgeable way posible. I have tried to engage you with the utmost respect and never intended to come off other wise.

I realize there are many paths to solutions and I value each and every path. I didnt mean to imply that because I am pro my position that means Im anti everyone else's position.

I understand that many don't like Islam and think that I have some Islamic agenda, that simply isnt true. Islam for me is a way of life and I attempt to live according to that life even down to my speech. I will attempt to be less expressive if thats the only way to get constructive diaglogue about a serious issue.

By quoting statistics by CNN, CIA, FBI, etc. sources Im not trying to seem like Im superior in education, because Im not, Im just quoting other sources. I have used these sources to support my position, so when Im defending my position just like others defend theirs, Im not excluding the other postitions, just trying to back mine up. I don't understand why that makes me wrong for supporting my position, but aparently it is.

If I recall, I never said that DDD's position was wrong. I simply stated how I feel that while it is a position and he hit on some very key issues and points that are true and a part of the solution, just like he feels his way makes more sense, I feel that my position makes sense. I don't expect to agree with everyone, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me.

However, Im certain that even in our differences, we can come to a compromise that will not only promote understanding, but can also promote and provide solutions.

I wish nothing but the Peace and Blessings of the Origin of us All upon you


Spell, as far as im concerned, you can lock this thread now.

[DonDaddyD]

Osiris, to follow you is to give up our right of choice, to agree with you is to become Muslim. Shouldn't we be allowed to come freely with our hearts and mind joined as one, to find Islam within ourselves as oppose to you force-feeding us that we are all Muslim's anyway and that Islam IS the best way of life? Wouldn't it be better if we found that truth?

If your religion has set you on the path of enlightenment then all you have done is present this new level of clarity as nothing but reducing you to little more than a blind zealot unwilling to accept anything but your own view and belief - Your dismissive stance on everything proves that. You may not be an extremist but the way you present yourself is just as equally fanatical. Within your recent display of absolute denial for anything but your faith, it tells the sad story of a once intelligent and open minded Man being stripped away by a singular vision (your blind faith) into now an intelligent close-minded Man whose close-mindedness has shrouded him in ignorance reducing the effectiveness of his intelligence to nought.

You would do well to have faith in what you believe, but yet be mindful that you cannot know everything, do everything and you cannot possible have all the answers for everyone, when everyone isn’t like you.

I will post this and then I am done with this thread:

When Black people first came over to England en masse they came from varying countries with varying social practices and religions. A African Muslim and a Christian Jamaican had as much in common with each other as they did with the White people whose Country they came to live in. Faced with racism and herded under one banner the one thing that unified them was the fact that they were black and not any one or numerous religions. - For nine months I have studied such things.

It is religion that divides people as a whole, and their ethnicity that categorises them together; at least that is the constant in my society - In short, you can reach a wider spectrum of people through their ethnicity than you can through any one religion. Protestantism and Catholicism, Islam and Christianity those beliefs are the things that have divided people and started Centuries of Wars and not because of their varying views but because the majority as a whole they couldn’t accept (key word) another set of views. People with religious belief have proven to be one of the most intolerant to other all beliefs. The only thing that regulates that in this era (and mainly in the Western World) is social practices and constraints. Therefore I do not think that teaching tolerance throughout all religions is the solution (when it has proven to falter so drastically in the past), much rather teaching people a new social value. People have also proven to be more accepting to changing social values than the changing of or be tolerant of, something that goes against their religious views. So I believe reaching people through those means would be more effective than teaching them tolerance through religion.

Even between you and Zorcrow though you both have a blind faith in two very different yet beneath the surface very similar deities, the fact that he is Christian and that you are Muslim is very much the difference between the two of you. What connects you is that you are black. And in order to reach you both in the most effective way (because he isn't going to listen to your Muslim teachings over his Christian belifes and your not going to listen to his Christian belifes over your Muslim teachings) I believe isn't to speak through your varying religions but to help improve or accept a changing society. - In short you can reach a wider spectrum through their ethnicity than you can through their varying religions. Doing so has a greater impact overall.

As Sinosleep said in an earlier post there are many things he does that are not advocated by his religion yet he partakes in them anyway as it is socially accepted and in regards to some of those activities he knows that he will bring himself no harm. What I’m saying is that by reaching out to the Black community about homosexuality outside the doctrines of religious teachings (because all your solution suggests is tolerance and not understanding and it is the lack of understanding that is the problem) making better known that it is socially accepted as societies reasoning of the sexuality is different to many religious views, might help further and better eliminate the negative image it has within the Black community.

I am not saying that religion needs to change its teachings. What I am saying is that religion cannot provide a solution to this whilst religion teaches that it is a negative thing (and that will never change). Teaching tolerance isn’t enough because man can quickly become intolerant. Understanding of WHY is needed and many religions explanation of why and what is homosexuality is inaccurate in my personal opinion.

[Osiris]

Osiris, to follow you is to give up our right of choice, to agree with you is to become Muslim. Shouldn't we be allowed to come freely with our hearts and mind joined as one, to find Islam within ourselves as oppose to you force-feeding us that we are all Muslim's anyway and that Islam IS the best way of life? Wouldn't it be better if we found that truth?

If your religion has set you on the path of enlightenment then all you have done is present this new level of clarity as nothing but reducing you to little more than a blind zealot unwilling to accept anything but your own view and belief - Your dismissive stance on everything proves that. You may not be an extremist but the way you present yourself is just as equally fanatical. Within your recent display of absolute denial for anything but your faith, it tells the sad story of a once intelligent and open minded Man being stripped away by a singular vision (your blind faith) into now an intelligent close-minded Man whose close-mindedness has shrouded him in ignorance reducing the effectiveness of his intelligence to nought.

You would do well to have faith in what you believe, but yet be mindful that you cannot know everything, do everything and you cannot possible have all the answers for everyone, when everyone isn’t like you.

I will post this and then I am done with this thread:

When Black people first came over to England en masse they came from varying countries with varying social practices and religions. A African Muslim and a Christian Jamaican had as much in common with each other as they did with the White people whose Country they came to live in. Faced with racism and herded under one banner the one thing that unified them was the fact that they were black and not any one or numerous religions. - For nine months I have studied such things.

It is religion that divides people as a whole, and their ethnicity that categorises them together; at least that is the constant in my society. Protestantism and Catholicism, Islam and Christianity those beliefs are the things that have divided people and started Centuries of Wars and not because of their varying views but because those as a whole they couldn’t accept (key word) another set of views. People with religious belief have proven to be one of the most intolerant to other all beliefs. The only thing that regulates that in this era (and mainly in the Western World) is social practices and constraints. Therefore I do not think that teaching tolerance throughout all religions is the solution (when it has proven to falter so drastically in the past), much rather teaching people a new social value. People have also proven to be more accepting to changing social values than changing or be tolerant of something that goes against their religious views. So I believe reaching people through those means would be more effective than teaching them tolerance through religion.

Even between you and Zorcrow though you both have a blind faith in two very different yet beneath the surface very similar deities, the fact that he is Christian and that you are Muslim is very much the difference between the two of you. What connects you is that you are black. And in order to reach you both in the most effective way I believe is wouldn't be to speak through your varying religions but to help improve or accept a changing society.

As Sinosleep said in an earlier post there are many things he does that are not advocated by his religion yet he partakes in them anyway as it is socially accepted and in regards to some of those activities he knows that he will bring himself no harm. What I’m saying is that by reaching out to the Black community about homosexuality outside the doctrines of religious teachings (because all your solution suggests is tolerance and not understanding and it is the lack of understanding that is the problem) it might help further and better eliminate the negative image it has within the Black community.

I am not saying that religion needs to change its teachings. What I am saying is that religion cannot provide a solution to this whilst religion teaches that it is a negative thing (and that will never change). Teaching tolerance isn’t enough because man can quickly become intolerant. Understanding of WHY is needed and many religions explanation of why and what is homosexuality is inaccurate in my personal opinion.

I thank you for your clarity in pin point accuracy. I do have a question for you in all seriousness. If religion cannot be part of the solution, what are we to do with all those that believe in religion?

Also, I would not like to be considered those of "blind faith" because as Jesus(PBUH) taught if the blind lead the blind both fall into the ditch. Im willing to cross party lines and dialogue to come up with solutions. I realize that religion isnt the only solution as I pointed out it previously its enemy #1, remember I was the one to blame religion, so I can't be all that blind.

I really do appreciate your candid response, and look forward to more enlightened posts from you.:)

[Jill Monroe]

While i am LOATHE to offer anymore participation in this thread after the infuriating remarks posted by Zorcrow (and Osiris to a lesser degree) i would like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread...it got HEATED to be sure..but it didnt DEGENERATE.

Like him or hate him, Osiris can at least come up with some threads that spark debate among us and that is what the Round Table forum is all about.

[DonDaddyD]

I thank you for your clarity in pin point accuracy. I do have a question for you in all seriousness. If religion cannot be part of the solution, what are we to do with all those that believe in religion?


In all honesty I do not know. I'm looking at this hoistically as a total solution and not just a way of teaching tolerance.

You are right that the problem may be rooted in by centuries of religion shaping the Culture. But when my Uncle disowned his gay son he may of mentioned God or Jesus when he was cussing but his reasoning wasn't born out of faith, his frustration and dissapointment was born out of not understanding why his son was and another persons wasn't.

There are many arguments as to what Homosexuality is and the problem I find is that people are confused as to why some people are homosexuals and why some aren't. Knowledge giving answers to that is one step closer to a solution.

But then there are several different persepective on the matter of why some are and some aren't. If a clear explanation could be given then that would cast a light on the negative opinions surrounding Homosexuality.

What does Islam say on the matter of why some people are homosexual and some aren't? I'm almost certain Christianity believe it to be a choice and that all are originally born hetrosexual.

But another problem is raised within that, though some black people do claim religion, a large degree do not follow the bible as intently as, lets say you and Zorcrow do. So even though they do know that Homosexuality is a sin they may misunderstand the bibles or the Quran (or any other sacred book) reason of why, they then tend to come to their own flawed conclusions (like a defective gene or something - I've heard them all). Giving people more knowledge about Homosexuality across the board may help eliminate the need to be so negative about it or people who are gay.

[Osiris]

I don't ordinarily get too personal, but having a gay sister and several friends I feel that sharing my experience wouldnt be all that bad.

Personally, I never condemned any of them, for as I am taught through my beliefs they too have just as much of a chance at heaven as I do.

In Islam, we are taught that Man and Woman were created of the same essence and are equal. They were created of the same nature and are equal in every sense with the exception that they have different dutys and roles. While these things may differ based on situtation, fundementally, there are primary duties. Its sorta like this: I might work in HR and you might work in the Mailroom, we could both be level 2 employees with the same salary. We are equal in status in the company, but we have different roles, neither is superior to the other as both are necessary functions.

Islam doesnt explain why some people are or arent anything. Islam just explains what is and isnt. As it relates to sin, the understanding and meaning of sin in Islam means that one is not acting in accordance with their original nature, purpose, or mission. Therefore, the only reason why homosexuality is considered a sin is due to the idea that biologically the function and form of both male and female is designed the way it is for a specific purpose, whether you choose to use it for that purpose either directly or indirectly is up to the individual.

Islam does give guidance that there are people who are born that are different than other people whether they are blind, deaf, etc. There is no definite opinion on whether homosexuality is born or is a choice, but in either case, Islam decrees that any action that maybe contrary of the original self that one cannot help, is considered a test. Islam teaches that all are tested by varying means and varying degrees. So a rational Muslim wouldnt treat or talk to a homosexual person in a way that implies that they are inherently sinful, we would just say Masha'Allah(thats God's will) and just consider it their personal test.

I have attended many Islamic diaglogues on the subject and the end result is that Homosexuals have a better chance at heaven than most heterosexuals.

In Islam everything God tells us is weighed primarily by Nikah(intention), one can commit any action they want, but the weight of it, whether its sinful or not and worthy of the hellfire or paradise, is truly decided by the Nikah of the individual. Which is why jurists oftentimes remind us to be cautious of judging and to treat every human no matter how different we think of them with salaam or peace.

Now I know, that there are Muslims that believe the complete opposite, and certainly they will get their reward, for the Quran specifically addresses those who are aggressors and persecuters!

So in the end, to the Muslim, it really doesnt matter how one came to be who they are, the true test in life is what you do with who you are. As intention and action is the only criterion by which we feel God judges.

For those that don't know our system of who goes where plays out like a courtroom drama to a degree, we believe that there are Angels that record our every good deed and our every bad deed, and based on what side of the scale your deeds fall on, that will determine where you will go and for how long, as Islam teaches that hell is only for purification and punishment and when your term is up all eventually go to heaven.

[DonDaddyD]

Islam doesnt explain why some people are or arent anything. Islam just explains what is and isnt. As it relates to sin, the understanding and meaning of sin in Islam means that one is not acting in accordance with their original nature, purpose, or mission. Therefore, the only reason why homosexuality is considered a sin is due to the idea that biologically the function and form of both male and female is designed the way it is for a specific purpose, whether you choose to use it for that purpose either directly or indirectly is up to the individual.

This is my point, religion (not just Islam) doesn't teach the why people are in detail, it teaches the what it is and isn't in relation to its definition and role as a sin.

In the end the message spinning out of religion in general is that homosexuality is wrong. And most peoples intolerance with Homosexuality is that they believe it is:
Wrong
They don't understand why they are homosexual

I theorise that because people don't understand the reason why some people are gay they form their own reasoning of 'WHY' around the idea that it is wrong and their conclusion is ultimately negatively charged.

True religion teaches to essentially 'love thy neighbour', as I said though, tolerance is a fragile thing. By giving them a greater understanding of why some people are Homosexuality may ultimately reduce the negativity associated with the idea that 'Homosexuality is wrong'. If anything, a better understanding of 'WHY homosexuals are' may encourage people to accept it or dare I say increase their tolerance just that little bit more (that last bit is a little bit of a contradiction I know).

(An explanation of 'why people are' is a solution religion doesn't provide)
*Just my take on the situation thats all*

[Osiris]

But the problem lies in what "love thy neighbor" means. Love thy neighbor is a spiritual concept that states that overall we should treat everyone with love, and at the foundation this concept is prevelant in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. However, loving one, doesnt mean changing ones view as to what the scripture and what they believe about it actually says.

For instance, its medically proven that drug addiction and alcholism are diseases. While we are encouraged to support and help these people in our religions, it still doesnt change the fact that we are told that the actions that brought about the illness is contrary to our original nature or sin.

There really is no other way other than getting rid of religion or ignoring the scriptures all together, and I doubt that would happen anytime soon.

[DonDaddyD]

You know when I said Love thy neighbour I only used it as a metaphor (albeit a poor one) for 'the bible teaches tolerance for others that are difference even if we don't agree with their lifestyle....

But what your basically saying Osiris is that there is no solution past the fact that we accept that homosexuality is wrong.

It seems what your doing is refuse accept that people could be taught anything more about Homosexuality other than what religion says about it.

[Osiris]

No, what I believe is that due to the fact that the scriptures teach homosexuality is a sin, no matter what conclusion science comes to about homosexuality, the only way to get believers to change is to get them to stop believing. I feel no amount of understanding of homosexuality is going to change the believer in reference to how they feel about homosexuality as a sin.

[DonDaddyD]

Thats the stubborn view that had me arguing with my aunt who doesn't believe in evolution, so I asked her "all those bones in the national history museum how do you explain them?" She told me "they were fake!"

But with a more expansive understanding, people may become more tolerant at the very least. I just don't believe the vast majority of people are still so unwilling to accept anything but what their religion is teaching.

But at this point I think we may as well agree to disagree.

[Osiris]

Well evolution is different, because most religions don't teach against it, its the adherants that don't understand their own religion that have the problem.

The idea of sin or transgression has to do with the nature of man and woman. One understands this nature based off of their respective scriptures.

The scriptures tell us the Original Nature and purpose that we were created in and were/are supposed to stay in. Only when we act outside this original nature are we considered those who transgress or sin.

So the real question is what is the original nature that God created us in?

Is homosexuality the intended purpose and design for us, especially biologically?

These are the major issues people don't want to deal with, its kinda like 9/11, people love to talk about the event and who did it, but no one wants to talk about why it happened.

The only way to diffuse this issue is to understand why its considered a sin first.

[ZorCrow]

Well evolution is different, because most religions don't teach against it, its the adherants that don't understand their own religion that have the problem.

The idea of sin or transgression has to do with the nature of man and woman. One understands this nature based off of their respective scriptures.

The scriptures tell us the Original Nature and purpose that we were created in and were/are supposed to stay in. Only when we act outside this original nature are we considered those who transgress or sin.

So the real question is what is the original nature that God created us in?

Is homosexuality the intended purpose and design for us, especially biologically?

These are the major issues people don't want to deal with, its kinda like 9/11, people love to talk about the event and who did it, but no one wants to talk about why it happened.

The only way to diffuse this issue is to understand why its considered a sin first.


Is homosexuality the intended purpose and design for us, especially biologically?

No . . . without medical science human beings can not reproduce in pure homosexual relationships.

[DonDaddyD]

Ok I can see what you guys are finally saying from your perspective Homosexuality is what it is according to what you know of it and thus only tollerance can be taught.

But what of those that don't look upon homosexuality as you two do?

My view of the sexuality is just as valid as your's.

[Osiris]

Ok I can see what you guys are finally saying from your perspective Homosexuality is what it is according to what you know of it and thus only tollerance can be taught.

But what of those that don't look upon homosexuality as you two do?

My view of the sexuality is just as valid as your's.

In my opinion, I don't think either position is more valid than the other. Im a firm believer that at least on this issue, both parties are going to be steadfast in their view. What is needed is not a changing of view from either party, but an understanding of each view, which will garner respect and peace.

Im just pointing out that you can't go straight to the "religious" folk and expect them to change their view, if we don't understand the fundamental reason they believe as they do.

The Abrahamic religions(Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all agree that God created and He created EVERYTHING with an aim and purpose, all things are governed under the Nature and rules under which they were created in.

Until men have babies naturally and women produce sperm, I find it hard to see a day when the "religious" folk will abandon their position that homosexuality is outside the Original nature in which man and woman were created.

Genetics, psychology, and socialology is a much easier sell, because it doesnt deal with original nature, but more so a changing or "evolved" nature, which is perfectly acceptable to most exegesis of scripture, because the scriptures all point to the fact the nature's can change from their original self and the product or fruit their of, becomes the biggest challenge when tipping the scale of right vs wrong.

[Arkaine]

No . . . without medical science human beings can not reproduce in pure homosexual relationships.

A friend had a theory actually that species adapt in certain ways to fit their enviornment and with the over-population of the planet homosexuality was human's way of adapting to thinning out the population.

Of course I disagree, believing in the nurture side over the "nature vs. nurture" argument but it is something to ponder.

However, if you're going to use the argument that homosexuality isn't natural because it doesn't progress the species then, uh, technically either does a sense of aesthetics/love/hate, etc. etc. In fact, if we were given to having no attraction toward a particular type of person then, chances are, we'd be having sex a lot more often and popping children out left right and centre. Does this mean that our sense of attraction is "unnatural" and should be disregarded? Should we only, in theory, be attracted to those who could have children? Because, if we're attracted to another wouldn't that make it "unnatural" since, without medical science, we couldn't have children.

[Rampage]

In terms of attraction and love/hate, that is biologically based and does advance the species. To look upon one another as attractive usually represents universal ideas in terms of attraction such as visual symmetry, favorable body shape and an overall healthy look as far as smooth skin, straight and white teeth,etc.
Biologists have long contended that looking for these characteristics and adhering to standards advances the gene pool by ensuring that the healthiest and strongest among us are able to reproduce first, making sure the species endures and is strengthened. Furthermore, biologists believe that men are generally less discriminant due to the ability to produce spperm over a lifetime while women, who have far fewer chances to pass on genes, are more discriminant due to the need to make sure that each chance to pass on genes is with the most fit (attractive, strong, healthy, succesful) person possible.
So while I am not throwing in my hat with Zorfccrow et al in what else is being said here, I did want to deal with that piece of information for the sake of veracity...

[Arkaine]

At best it's assumptions and my point still stands. On the list of priorities in the average man's attraction "the ability to bear children" is not one of them. Furthermore, there are more than a million deviations for what people find "attractive" which is, as always, suibjective. There is no such thing as "universal" beauty, the same way as there is no such thing as a "universal" stereotype people choose. Also, if we do consider that fact then the idea of homosexuality should not exist in that it would be impossible to exist because, as we all know, and as Zorcrow pointed out, men can't reproduce with other men like women can't reproduce with other women. Attraction therefore can not be solely based on a biological desire to further the population.

And for the record, I still believe the emotions of love and hate are very counter-productive to respawning. Love is an emotion that limits us, usually, to one person which is pretty counterproductive in my humble opinion and hate you can figure out for yourself.

[Jill Monroe]

And for the record, I still believe the emotions of love and hate are very counter-productive to respawning. Love is an emotion that limits us, usually, to one person which is pretty counterproductive in my humble opinion and hate you can figure out for yourself.


I've long since abandonned this thread BUT since you posted this...If i may direct your attention here--> http://www.screen-gems.net/showthread.php?t=1513

i think you will probably want to convey your thoughts on this particular subject.

[Lawless]

Wow a truly heated topic. First on original topic. I think the only uniquely black characteristics of homophobia is that it’s general acceptance/popularity in mainstream culture. As I can think of just as many ethnic groups that think the same way as Busta, DMX, and Eminem do, however the only difference is that hip-hop culture makes such proclamations vocal. There are as many white ethnic groups that take the same stand but don’t voice it. In proof of point while hip-hop in general advocate mistreating gays, however some of the more high profile court cases involving homosexuals are white, (at least in the US that I’ve noticed; disclaimer). As the film Brokeback Mountain makes illustrated, you did not want to be a gay cowboy in the south 30 years ago, :mad: heck even now for that matter. The only difference is no one was singing about it.

Off topic. To defend, hear me out first, Osiris and Crow; religion isn’t a fad. Not to talk down or anything like that, I pretty much said the same thing a couple of years ago as DDD said, about teaching tolerance, to a cousin who is a minister. I grew up in very religious family, church every Sunday, more than few bibles studies etc, but I'm kind of the liberal free-thinker (blacksheep) of the family, and the discussion evolved out of the whole ‘Freedom of Religion’ debate the current ‘rage’ in the US. As my cousin elaborated on, a person of faith is one that follows the tenets of that faith; if God/Allah/Yaweh/etc said that they do not accept homosexuality, but treat them with the respect that all humans deserve. Then a person of faith can treat a person that is homosexual as an equal and sibling human being, however not accept their lifestyle, which is the cusp of the nature of tolerance. To treat fairly despite a disagreement of some abstract nature or other. A person of faith who accepts homosexuality as not being ‘bad’ compromises their faith, which isn't fair to them to ask them to do so. Whiel there are many interpretations of religions that all in essence asy the samething it is subjective to each person to interpret them as they wish. Unless God/Allah/Yaweh/etc comes back later and says it’s OK then a person of said faith has/should follow their faith as ‘instructed’ by their faith. God/Allah/Yaweh/etc has to say adultery, fornication, stealing, murder, etc is OK, not any church/mosque/ temple/etc for a person of faith to accept them as OK.

I don’t personally agree with Osiris and Crow, or my cousin for that matter, but I understand where they’re coming from in holding true to their faith. I don’t know if there is any true solution that makes everyone happy, but open dialogue is always a good start.;)

[Arkaine]

I think, in honesty, it doesn't just stop at faith. Everyone has their own personal beliefs and some who are athiests may believe homosexuality to be wrong or otherwise. This is just a problem that those themselves have to deal with. I think, personally, as long as you're not citing the harm of a person, or trying to impact their life in a negative way, then you are free to your beliefs. A person who disapproves of homosexuality is fine by me. I don't care. I just won't spend much time around you and even if I do, chances are I'll do my best to either not be around when you start spouting your beliefs (as I know I'm far too argumentative to not get carried away) or else try to engage in some light debate on the subject.

I understand that people's faith (not just in god but their own beliefs on such things as homosexuality) can be blind. It's not a path I'd personally take but it's a comforting one (god that sounded condecending -- didn't mean it to) road for a lot of people. Go with it. Just don't try to push those beliefs in me in a violent way (I've had a priest come up to me in a shop, hand me a leaflet, and then insist I needed to be "saved" -- that's fine, I took a respectful bow, proclaimed myself a heathen and then proceded to assure the father that I look quite nice in artifical light, like that of the flaming chasms of hell. And then thanked him but, at the end, no thanks) I'm cool and I won't think any less of you as a person.

[Nackereia]

The exploitation of women and gays in today's hip hop culture has become increasingly accepted by our own silence.

Really? Cause I don't agree. The explotion of women and gays and sex and clubs and drinking and whoring and violencef and all that other nonsense you hear in hip-hop songs hasn't been increasingly accepted by me. I may be silent, but I'm not in acceptance. In fact, that's the main reason I don't listen to the radio, because of the trash you hear on it. Instead, I get new songs recommended from last.fm to me.

Just because I'm silent does not automatically make me accepting. Far from it.