Spotlight discussion: Fantastic Four

[Jill Monroe]

Marvel's "First Family" premiered in 1963. The brainy, geeky Reed; The brash, blunt Ben; The impulsive, youthfull Johnny; and the meek, demure Susan. The Fantastic Four has come A LONG WAY since their first days in the pages of Marvel...in appearence, roster, attitudes and more.

This thread is designed to discuss the Fantastic Four...which sometimes was the "fantastic five, six or even simply three". there are many aspects that can be covered and i hope that they will be.

One thing that has always impressed me is the evolvement of Susan Storm from the meek, demure damsel in distress [Invisible Girl] to being billed as "the most powerful member of the team" now known as Invisible Woman. It was more than coincidence i think that her pronounced transformation from Invisible GIRL to INVISIBLE WOMAN occured in the early 70's as the Feminist Movement was in full swing. Her personality, demeanor and power manifestation all changed, becoming stronger, more defined and effective as she single handedly saved the entire team from the clutches of Psycho Man.

She's been forced into the position of Team Leader more than once, and often been the last woman standing when the rest of the team was taken down. She's faced and BEATEN Juggernaut, made Wolverine RUN from her..and a whole lot more. During the early to mid 90's her attitude changed to down right bitchy and her costume became one of the most provocative worn by any woman in Marvel..it was yet another shocking change.

But again, this is just ONE aspect of the team that can be discussed. Id like to talk about the many "outsiders" who have served on the team as well...including: Ms Marvel 2 (Sharon Ventura), Crystal the Elemental, She-Hulk, Medusa, Lyja, Ant Man.

So please come in, share your thoughts on whats been stated and bring up other aspects of this team and its mythos that interest you.

[Hawksmoor]

The Four, at their core, comprise the ultimate core of the post-human experience on both an intellectual and a physical level: they have travelled to worlds beyond imagining, they have traversed the universe, and opposed conquerors, devourers and gods, and talked with many of the same. They have been a true force for good, and have taken their light into some of the darkest places.

Yet despite that, they have remained grounded. They have gazed across the abyss without its return gaze tainting them; they have fought with monsters and yet managed to avoid becoming monsters themselves. Their true strength has always lain in the family relationship and dynamic; where one might fall, three remain to pick them up, and soldier on. Through the best and worst times, the Fantastic Four have endured, emerging stronger, more confident, and yet more noble than before.

Although their lineup has changed many times over the years, producing new and different group dynamics, the original team have always had the greatest bond, and the deepest friendships, with an obvious love for one another that has always reflected beautifully through the work of all but the dullest writers. Of course, a by-product of such deep and potent affection running between the characters is that they become far easier and more rewarding for the audience to love.

Ultimately, the Four are perhaps the most pure group of heroes. Whilst the Avengers recently became bogged down in politics, limiting their potential for heroism, and the X-Men have spent most of their years as outlaws, the Four have always been the respectable face of post-humanity, remaining their own independent group whilst managing to stay on the right side of the law without compromising their popularity or efficacy as heroes and adventurers.

Of course, we can't overlook the elemental symbolism between the Four as another reason why they work so well as a group, and cohere so well as a family; Earth, Air, Fire and Water, all elements combined to make the pure whole, perfect and uncorrupted in its harmony. Within the group we see all shades: genius and mediocrity (although never anything detrimental like stupidity), humour and lack thereof, fearlessness and fear (yet tempered by the noble ability to look past the fear and soldier on).

For so many reasons, the Fantastic Four always deserved the title First Family of Marvel; whole and complete, their respective skills mesh perfectly to create a unit unlike any other of comparable numbers, with their personalities in similar synch: diametrically opposed, yet stronger as a group because of it, ass they revel in their differences, and find strength in their similarities and bonds.

[Greatness]

Personally I love the Fantastic Four. They are the first comic book team I have ever read about, let alone the first actual comic book I read. Personally I love Ben Grimm and Susan Storm, mainly because you can really feel out the joy and pain of both characters. Ben Grimm may be a powerhouse but he is horrendous too look at, sue on the other hand is a beautiful stunning woman but the man she loves seems too see right through her. Both characters having the most Raw power more or less on the team, sue of course being the most dangerous easily.

Recently I saw a book, where it was kinda like a ladies night out in marvel and showed the reappearance of Sharon Ventura, send me a PM if you wanna take a look at it Spell I think you will like it. It features (Sue, Emma, Sharon, and I think Jennifer walters I forget.) and they talk about how Reed allways has paid no attention to Sue and the untold story of how she almost fell for the black panther. It was a good read.

[Jill Monroe]

Recently I saw a book, where it was kinda like a ladies night out in marvel and showed the reappearance of Sharon Ventura, send me a PM if you wanna take a look at it Spell I think you will like it. It features (Sue, Emma, Sharon, and I think Jennifer walters I forget.) and they talk about how Reed allways has paid no attention to Sue and the untold story of how she almost fell for the black panther. It was a good read.

Greatness, i would LOVE to see that...and if you could give me the exact book info, id like to buy a copy of that for myself :)

I always envisioned Susan with someone like Black Panther...a man who would TRULY appreciate her beauty and power. AND i always said a GOOD story to add to the drama of the core ff family would BE to have Susan have an affair..but not just a one night stand... have her truly be conflicted between Reed and another man (Black Panther). They did sort of delve into this in the cancelled comic "The Six" in which that reality's version of Susan had an affair with our mainstream Havok. He slipped into the body and life of his alternate counterpart in that reality who was married to Madelynne Pryor (Marvel Woman/Goblyn Queen) and so there was this long standing bitterness between Madelynne and Reed Richards while Havok and Susan seemed obivious to it.

From an astrological point of view: Hawk's assesment of th CORE team is so ON POINT. I feel that Reed would be "air" given his intelligence and leadership ability (qualities found in the air signs of the zodiac) Johnny is obviously "fire" given his passion, zeal and impulsive nature (again another trademark of fire signs in the zodiac); Ben is "earth" given his strong, dependable, usually constant/unshakable nature and Susan is "water", the craddle of life for the team, the heart as well as the nurturing one. ALTHOUGH Susan has displayed tendencies of both "fire" and "air" at different times.

another keen observation was the differences between FF as opposed to Avengers or the X-men. Although i think the X-men have LOST the offbeat "outlaw" edge that once made them stand out in the 80's and gave them a more underground cult following (before they were commercialized and dilluted. Despite its closeness and bond, The FF's core didnt always explore its family dynamics/dysfunction in a daring way in decades past...although there have been moments over the last 20 years...i think that (along with Invisible Woman's progresesion as a character) had something to do with the change in societies attitudes toward addressing "family issues" in the open.

If you look at the comic as it appeared in the 60's...its VERY cliched and condescending by today's standards and although there has been much in the way of change ..the FF is one of the few titles in Marvel that i think ANYONE can pick up and start on at any point and feel like they have an idea about these characters now. they each have such a large mantle and history about them....it makes you want to learn more about them.

The CORE aside...what does anyone think about the varied rosters? at some points there were 5 or even 6 members or only 3. Which "outsiders" managed to make the most impact? I personally think Ms. Marvel 2 (Sharon) and She-hulk made the most impact...Ms. Marvel's spectre has haunted the team will past 2000...given that they basically FAILED her after Doctor Doom ravaged her physically and mentally.

[Hawksmoor]

The whole Elemental thing doesn't just go from an astrological point of view, either. If you look at their powers, they were designed around the Four Elements of Greek natural philosophy. Reed, with his supple nature is Water, flowing over obstacles, but forceful if needed. Sue is Air, able to travel almost unnoticed, yet to harness power the likes of which most people cannot even dream of. Ben is Earth, solid, unmoving and strong, whilst Johnny is Fire, burning bright, hot and quick.

As to the varied rosters, I never liked them as much, but if I had to pick any, it would be directly after Secret Wars; Ben Grimm was enjoying his dual nature as a fearless lone adventurer upon Battleworld, whilst Jennifer Walters took the fourth role, filling The Thing's ample shoes. Jennifer would be one of the best to take Ben's place, since she was at the time nearly in the same weight class (although these days might be a little over, I'm not sure), but has the same nobility and good heart within her.

[Greatness]

Spell the book is in the Marvel Knights Series of 4 (Fantastic four but its just called 4) book #21

[Jill Monroe]

The whole Elemental thing doesn't just go from an astrological point of view, either. If you look at their powers, they were designed around the Four Elements of Greek natural philosophy. Reed, with his supple nature is Water, flowing over obstacles, but forceful if needed. Sue is Air, able to travel almost unnoticed, yet to harness power the likes of which most people cannot even dream of. Ben is Earth, solid, unmoving and strong, whilst Johnny is Fire, burning bright, hot and quick.

As to the varied rosters, I never liked them as much, but if I had to pick any, it would be directly after Secret Wars; Ben Grimm was enjoying his dual nature as a fearless lone adventurer upon Battleworld, whilst Jennifer Walters took the fourth role, filling The Thing's ample shoes. Jennifer would be one of the best to take Ben's place, since she was at the time nearly in the same weight class (although these days might be a little over, I'm not sure), but has the same nobility and good heart within her.

not that the astrological view point WAS the only way to look at it, but i just chose to go that route because astrology can help give insight to personality types (among other things) and so thats what i was looking at. You went a different route (which seemed to look more at their powers) and yet the only difference was in Reed and Susan (water/air)...and even I said at times she desplayed the characteristics of an AIR sign.

and as for not liking any of the rosters...THAT was basically the collective mentality that was displayed by most people who replied to a thread i made like this on Marvel Directory..it totally killed the potential for discussion. the roster changes had their merit and in several particular cases it was because of drama going on with "the core" and they needed to happen.